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Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

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Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#51

Post by pacaro »

kmonsen wrote: post #4

Not asking for raise is "good karma". Why would anyone want to work for Microsoft at this point if they have options?

My experience at MS was that the only way to get promoted was to have a good relationship with your manager, and for them to have a good relationship with their manager, and so on (the higher level you are the more layers need to be persuaded).

So if you are in that position you don't need to ask. What to do to get your next promotion, and whether you are on track, is just something that gets discussed in 1:1s from time to time.

If you are not in that position, then no amount of asking is going to make any difference, coming into work with an offer from Google/Amazon/Facebook/etc. will maybe get you escorted from the building, maybe get you a counter offer.

So, while I don't have an opinion on the karmic consequences of asking for a raise, I do believe that it will not achieve anything other than friction, either your boss knows you need a raise and is working with you to get it, or you should look for another job

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#52

Post by ChristopherM »

This is horrible advice, men and women both must push for a raise, companies will absolutely under no circumstances just give away raises because "it's the right thing to do".

Case in point, I am a white male. When I started working at a company over a decade ago I also started at the same time as another white male. I started at $55k, he started at $52k I negotiated for an additional $3k from the start. The first year I assumed they would give me a good raise since I was hired at entry level wages, I got a $2k raise. I was livid. The next year I made a huge deal about the tiny raise, I ended up getting $5k, now up to $62k. Year after $3k, again not happy. During that year there was a "salary freeze", I told my boss that was unacceptable, if I didn't get a promotion I would be leaving. So I got another $5k during the salary freeze. The next year still not happy, I made the same ultimatum, This time $10k. Up to $80k, I ended up leaving a couple of months later for a management position.

In contrast that other software engineer? He got $2k per year, except for the salary freeze year, they made it up the year after. He left after 5 years making $62k

Me -> $55k, $57k, $62k, $65k, $70k, $80k

Him -> $52k, $54k, $56k, $58k, $58k, $62k

So, apparently by being the squeaky wheel I ended up making an additional $18k a year by the time we both left. Plus all the additional money I made the preceding years.

Lesson here? Make yourself very valuable to the company, and then make them pay. They won't do it of their own free will. Look at it from their perspective, if you don't say anything why would they do anything? Obviously you are happy if you are not complaining.

The problem for women is that, in general, they don't speak up, they don't negotiate for salary increases they just accept what is offered. What we really need to do is to teach women how to understand what they are really worth, and to negotiate from a position of strength.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#53

Post by renata »

neilellis wrote: post #50
jnem wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, when you say, "slavery wasn't an African person's fault", I have to assume you are talking about Slavery in recent American history and not Slavery as a thing throughout history. Humankind is at fault there because almost every race and culture did it at some point. Second, if I understand it correctly, I think maybe people downvoted you (not me) because your statement implies (however unintended) that without…

Fair comment, it's hard to communicate anything well :) Certainly not my intention, my emphasis is it is men's responsibility to help reduce gender inequality, not our privilege :-) Though again I disagree with people using down votes to disagree with an opinion :-)

Complaining a lot about downvotes is also sometimes a good way to earn them...

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#54

Post by zxcvvcxz »

jacalata wrote: post #44
zxcvvcxz wrote: post #33

Isn't the problem that they don't ask for raises and negotiate as much or as hard as men do? I wonder what would help women with this. Everyone needs to look out for their own best interests in "the real world", no magic fairy is going to wave a wand and give people doing the same job the same money. There's no economic incentive to do so without pressure. And that pressure must come from the employees.

Partly. The other problem is that when they do negotiate the way men do, they tend to get far more negative reactions (like having the job offer withdrawn). http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

Well there's a market solution for that too - keep looking for better work if you believe you're worth more. Eventually smart employers will see the ridiculousness of what's happening, and hire all the otherwise competent workers who are being discriminated against for no good reason.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#55

Post by neilellis »

anigbrowl wrote: post #41
neilellis wrote: post #25

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

I didn't downvote you, but he gave this advice in response to a direct question. True, he could and maybe should have been asked what he was going to do about it, but since there's one CEO and lots of individual employees wishing for raises, some of whom are women, the likelihood is that individual employees who get a raise will do so at the behest of their direct manager, regardless of gender.

I want to make clear that I believe we all make mistakes and we all have prejudice - denying prejudice would be a foolish thing. I don't expect of him that he should be without prejudice, "he who is without sin" etc.

More I'm just re-iterating that what he said doesn't help in the battle for equality, it hinders. And within the setting he made the comment :-) it really doesn't help. Again not about blame, just that it doesn't help to put the emphasis on women to change their behaviour?

Certainly my focus is on the problem, not the person - because he may well be (and probably is) a much nicer person than me.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#57

Post by verroq »

neilellis wrote: post #25

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

The downvotes are for your man-splaining. Your status as privileged group invalidates everything you say.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#58

Post by neilellis »

renata wrote: post #53
neilellis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair comment, it's hard to communicate anything well :) Certainly not my intention, my emphasis is it is men's responsibility to help reduce gender inequality, not our privilege :-) Though again I disagree with people using down votes to disagree with an opinion :-)

Complaining a lot about downvotes is also sometimes a good way to earn them...

Ah I see, if you suggest there is something wrong with the system you get penalised by the system. My mistake :-)

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#59

Post by forrestthewoods »

yzzxy wrote: post #13

His response to the response: "Was inarticulate re how women should ask for raise. Our industry must close gender pay gap so a raise is not needed because of a bias #GHC14" https://twitter.com/satyanadella/status/520311425726566400

Protip: If you are a man you should reject any invitation to speak at a women's focused conference. At this conference in particular there was a bingo sheet for statements made by men. Any misstep will turn into a headline. It's crazy dangerous.

Attendees also questioned, perhaps fairly even, a particular panel session that all men. Why were they there? Because they were invited! The only rational response is to turn down such an invitation in the future.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#60

Post by apetresc »

jacalata wrote: post #49
dominotw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Twenty-nine percent of the general Microsoft workforce is female, and in the U.S., almost 61% is white. Can someone give me an american perspective on why Americans find 61% white to be an unacceptable thing considering 60-70% of american population identifies as white and America still predominantly is a white country.

I think they usually mean "much lower black and hispanic representation than demographics would suggest". The population of the USA is 13% black and 17% hispanic [0] - Microsoft employees are 4% black and 5% hispanic. [1] The coincidentally similar percentage of white people in the two groups is because MS has a far higher representation of Asians than the general population. [0] - http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/st…

Then why don't they say that? It seems more damaging to use an obviously absurd euphemism.
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