Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#51

Post by pron » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:46 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #43

pron wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense and politics[1] usually provide the answer. I'm not talking about keeping dead industries afloat, but protecting certain necessary ventures through regulation, to ensure that the workers get compensated fairly for their required service. It is better to have customers wait another 3 minutes for a taxi, than taxi drivers not being able to make ends meet. The important thing to remember is that we aren't s…

But clearly the issue here is not compensation for the workers. The issue is cost of license. Consider this hypothetical: 1. Country A - taxi license costs $300,000. Average ride costs $30, driver keeps $10 after paying off the license mortgage. 2. Country B - taxi license costs $100. Average ride costs $15, driver keeps $15 since he doesn't have to pay it off.

The structure of the arrangement between taxi companies and the government is different in each area, and is subject both to particular deals struck (and I don't mean that in a bad way, though sometimes it is) and to whatever extra safety procedures the government wants to enforce. For example, a country should be free to require an expensive insurance from taxi drivers, as well as background checks as means to preventing future costs, or as part of a deal. Thing is, Travis Kalanick and his ilk are trying to restrict our freedom to choose what's right for our community, as if there's only one way to run an economy, and as if they know what it is.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#52

Post by icebraining » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:47 AM UTC

pron wrote: post #42

netcan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a tricky position to take, as a political habit. The problem with defining 'worker happiness' some way is that if unhappiness entitles you to something unhappiness can be achieved. What about the happiness of those who would like to be a worker, but can't because it conflicts with existing worker happiness? Workers are ann entrenched interest group (or even class, to borrow more Marxist language) and they are…

But here's precisely the role of politics. If more workers would mean no one can make a sustenance, then maybe it's society's role to tell the newcomers, "look for something else". Or maybe it's the opposite, and when all interests are considered, it's best to let the incumbents shave a few percents off their income. But this kind of decision is exactly what politics is for. I wouldn't want to let a Silicon Valley br…

then maybe it's society's role to tell the newcomers, "look for something else"

On the other hand, there's almost 5 million people in Spain "looking for something else". Many of whom have already exhausted their unemployment benefits.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#53

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:49 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #47

alkonaut wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Stockholm, Uber isnt some revolutionary new method of transportation, it's another taxi co among hundreds. The app+payment is the only thing that sets them apart, but apps of course exist for a handful of the other largest taxi companies.

Doesn't Uber use considerably nicer cars than any other taxi service? When I get an Uber in London it's a very new and clean spacious black car, not your standard taxi. And the drivers are far more polite (they don't try to ask me about football for example).

Since there are hundreds of companies there are all sorts of cars. Uber does have the best cars in its price range (standard taxi prices) though. You can always get a black 7-series from a company other than Uber, but you are probably being ripped off since standard taxicos run more standard (such as e-class or v70) cars.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#54

Post by samuel » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:49 AM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #28

txutxu wrote: post #11

Well, a taxi license in Spain costs as much as a good new house. Maybe even two houses depending on the area. Historically, people needed to take big credits to start a taxi career. I'm not sure what is my position, but I've empathy for those who did pay such license and special insurances. Also I've empathy for those who want to make use of Uber services. It's not easy to make justice to all of them at the same time…

I think that it´s an easy position to take. If the government sides with Uber it loses the money he get from the (outrageously expensive, like you said) licenses, and has a lot of unhappy voters (taxi drivers). What would it gain ? Better service ? Lower prices, more fares ? Happier citizen ? That is really all to be demonstrated. It´s a very rational decision in my opinion, on part of the government, although I migh…

The councils(not the goverment) sell/auctions a tiny fraction of licenses. There's a secondary market where license owners sell them, usually when they retire.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#55

Post by pron » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:56 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #52

pron wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But here's precisely the role of politics. If more workers would mean no one can make a sustenance, then maybe it's society's role to tell the newcomers, "look for something else". Or maybe it's the opposite, and when all interests are considered, it's best to let the incumbents shave a few percents off their income. But this kind of decision is exactly what politics is for. I wouldn't want to let a Silicon Valley br…

then maybe it's society's role to tell the newcomers, "look for something else" On the other hand, there's almost 5 million people in Spain "looking for something else". Many of whom have already exhausted their unemployment benefits.

I wouldn't count on Uber and Travis Kalanick to help you there. That's a job for you, through your politicians, and it seems that, for the moment, you want to tell Uber, "Thanks, but no thanks". That's your right, and it's got nothing to do with stifling "innovation" or "progress", because Uber's got nothing to do with either of those things. It's nothing but a different (and I think, particularly exploitative) form of employment (packaged in arrogance and disdain for the law and the people who make it), which may, or may not be right for Spain.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#56

Post by mokkol » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:57 AM UTC

luisivan wrote: post #19

I live in Madrid and I'm totally ashamed about this. I used Uber a couple times, the second one this friday, and I friend and I asked the driver what will he do about the fines that will start happening this monday. He just said that he will probably stop driving. I love these new kind of services and this is not the way to boost innovation. Our politicians are fucking morons.

Have you tried Cabify yet? Cheaper than a taxi, very good quality of service and many more cars on the street than Uber. And 100% Legal

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#57

Post by raldi » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:58 AM UTC

santialbo wrote: post #45

I don't see what the problem is. In Spain the rule is that you need a taxi license to be a taxi driver or you'll get fined. Uber pretending they don't need one is bullshit.

Most American cities have that same rule, and yet Uber is legal in them; the key is how you define "taxi driver".

In most US cities, if you don't pick up strangers holding up their hand on the sidewalk, you're not considered a taxi, and the rule does not apply.

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#58

Post by ekianjo » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 11:59 AM UTC

anon1385 wrote: post #48

piokoch wrote: post #17

As far as I can see, Uber is the problem in countries, where taxi industry is heavily regularized. Recently Uber started its operation in Poland, in Warsaw. For 2 days that was a news, but later nobody paid much attention on it. In Poland in order to become taxi driver one needs to fulfill a number of conditions (only people who never comitted a crime are allowed a licence, must be physically and mentally healthy) a…

When people talk about 'heavy regulation', they don't usually specify what regulations they are actually talking about. In Germany for example, Uber is in trouble because they are not ensuring that their drivers are insured (a normal private car insurance won't cover commercial operation) and not ensuring that the vehicles have the required level of mechanical safety checks (commercial vehicles require more regular t…

> Hands up who on HN thinks filling our roads with uninsured drivers is a good thing? Hands up who thinks mandatory checks on vehicles brakes and other basic safety systems is a bad thing? I think I see pg's hand at the back there. But in general the vast vast majority of people think mandatory insurance is a good idea. That's why nearly all developed countries require it by law.

The thing is that instead of making these things "expected" because of market forces, imposing it by law makes it a default for everyone and it becomes a box to tick when you want to operate a taxi, just like many other things. And you end up with people who simply do not give a shit at all about consumer experience and providing a good service at all. That's the key difference with countries were taxis have less regulations: people actually compete on service, for the benefit of everyone, not just the few who are taxi drivers and running a monopoly provided by the State.

With this attitude you end up with Taxi drivers who do this job because they see it as a rent, not as a way to make a difference on the market. Yeah, that's the spirit!

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#59

Post by raldi » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 12:01 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #31

sergimansilla wrote: post #25

I take a fair amount of taxis and Uber. Except on some cases*, my experience with Uber is always vastly superior than it is with taxis: from the conversation to cleanliness, efficiency, etc. Specially in Spain. I agree that Uber needs to have the same fiscal treatment as taxis do, but making the service illegal is beyond ridiculous, and a very sad way to try to stifle innovation (which will end up finding its way any…

Why do you think Uber is an "innovation"? It's simply an unregulated, unsafe and uninsured taxi service. It's just like those illegal scalpers offering rides in any airport, except with a smartphone app. That's not innovation (useful and popular taxi apps existed before Uber), and whatever it is, it's not being stifled. Uber is free to apply for permits just like everyone else. I think that instead of being sad you s…

> unsafe and uninsured

What are your citations for those bold claims? The first one is subjective, and the second one seems objectively false: http://blog.uber.com/ridesharinginsurance

Re: Spain is trying to get rid of Uber: drivers will face fines up to €18K

#60

Post by davidw » Mon, Oct 06, 2014, 12:01 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #42

netcan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a tricky position to take, as a political habit. The problem with defining 'worker happiness' some way is that if unhappiness entitles you to something unhappiness can be achieved. What about the happiness of those who would like to be a worker, but can't because it conflicts with existing worker happiness? Workers are ann entrenched interest group (or even class, to borrow more Marxist language) and they are…

But here's precisely the role of politics. If more workers would mean no one can make a sustenance, then maybe it's society's role to tell the newcomers, "look for something else". Or maybe it's the opposite, and when all interests are considered, it's best to let the incumbents shave a few percents off their income. But this kind of decision is exactly what politics is for. I wouldn't want to let a Silicon Valley br…

How does "government" know exactly when to tell people to look for something else?

Do you think it's possible that the "insiders" might try and influence the state to get them to tell that to newcomers in order to gain a bigger share of the pie for themselves?