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My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

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Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#51

Post by hobs »

monochr wrote: post #18
drhayes9 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, IANAL. I also don't like those kinds of employment clauses. The way I understand it those clauses are written to prevent the kind of situation where you have a problem at work, can't solve it, go home, solve it, then offer to license it to your employer the following day for a reasonable charge.

And why is that unreasonable? If I did it on my own time and my own resources they should pay for it. Jobs aren't slave contracts where a company gets to own everything about me. And if an employ doesn't do any work at work and just does this sort of thing: fire them, then hire them as a consultant. The business just lost most of the tax burden of supporting an employee, e.g. pay roll taxes, insurance, etc. And the e…

I agree with you, and I think the poster is being sarcastic, hence the reasonable charge aspect.

I think the real problem is if the company was sharing in the profits of the invention, and companies took care of workers as they did back in the day, this would not be nearly the point of contention it is.

My father's company pays you for getting a patent, then pays you a percentage for their profits related to that patent, I dont know how they do the math, and it is likely favorable, but the rub is that there is tangible benefits to you for inventing things, oh wow!

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#52

Post by 6cxs2hd6 »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #48

My startup is compensating the engineers with restricted shares in the corporation. When we go for funding, we will want the highest valuation we can convince the investors of. One important valuation attribute is the corporation's legal ownership of the intellectual property produced by the engineers who build the system. That intellectual property is not just patents, but the source code, web site design, system ar…

I'm not sure I understand this language:

> I will promptly disclose In writing to the Company all discoveries, developments, designs, ideas ...yada yada... made, conceived, reduced to practice, or learned by me (either alone or jointly with others) during the term of the Independent Contractor Agreement between the Company and me and within 12 months thereafter....

Let's I work for you, then quit -- or you fire me. Eleven months later, I'm taking a shower, and have an idea related to your business. I am supposed to disclose that to you, and you own it. Do I understand that correctly?

Edit: I wasn't the person who downvoted you. I'm genuinely asking.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#53

Post by morganherlocker »

yalogin wrote: post #33

Do all the new startups also require such a blanket IP clause? Or is it something only the older/bigger companies do?

Many do, but as an employee, you should treat them as negotiable. An agreement where the company has default ownership of ideas in the vertical and you have default ownership of everything else is a reasonable compromise that I think most people can agree to. For ideas that are in the vertical, you can ask for permission on a case by case basis. I have this exact system in place and it has worked flawlessly. It requires lots of communication, and a certain amount of trust, but it is much better than the alternative. Personally, I see it as a moral imperative to not sell away exclusive rights to my thoughts.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#54

Post by acjohnson55 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #47
goostavos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an awful lot of maybes. Maybe I was a good employee, met my deadlines, respected both company time and my own, and also enjoyed working on pet projects in my free time. It is absolutely absurd that a company feels entitled to my personal work because of "maybe."

Maybe I was a good employee, met my deadlines, respected both company time and my own, and also enjoyed working on pet projects in my free time. It is absolutely absurd that a company feels entitled to my personal work because of "maybe." Organizations tend toward pessimism because people respond more strongly to shame, insult, and embarrassment (of themselves and others) than to victory, pride, altruism, and shared…

Organizations tend toward pessimism because people respond more strongly to shame, insult, and embarrassment (of themselves and others) than to victory, pride, altruism, and shared glory.

My understanding is the exact opposite [1]. At least that what we were often taught in our teacher prep classes. I know that other research indicates that people are more loss averse than gain seeking [2], but I'm not sure that indicates that a pessimistic environment is actually productive in the long-run. I think that may be your point though, in your second paragraph.

[1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/family-affair/200809/rew... (applying to children)

[2] http://www.inc.com/magazine/201304/issie-lapowsky/get-more-d...

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#55

Post by rmason »

zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

You don't have to agree to sign such agreements. Once a company has invested in hiring you they aren't likely to let you go when you're at the proverbial starting line. Its more a case of who is going to blink first.

I just know that I've refused to sign more than once. Do you think, especially in Silicon Valley, that the employer not only wants to lose the employee but be bad mouthed about restrictive agreements online where it's likely they will lose even more battles in the recruiting wars?

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#56

Post by acjohnson55 »

6cxs2hd6 wrote: post #52
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #48

My startup is compensating the engineers with restricted shares in the corporation. When we go for funding, we will want the highest valuation we can convince the investors of. One important valuation attribute is the corporation's legal ownership of the intellectual property produced by the engineers who build the system. That intellectual property is not just patents, but the source code, web site design, system ar…

I'm not sure I understand this language: > I will promptly disclose In writing to the Company all discoveries, developments, designs, ideas ...yada yada... made, conceived, reduced to practice, or learned by me (either alone or jointly with others) during the term of the Independent Contractor Agreement between the Company and me and within 12 months thereafter.... Let's I work for you, then quit -- or you fire me. E…

I find that part quite strange too. I can understand not being able to use that knowledge in competition for a agreed-upon period of time, but I've never signed anything that would require assignment of IP discovered/developed post-engagement. That wouldn't fly with me.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#57

Post by carrotleads »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #48

My startup is compensating the engineers with restricted shares in the corporation. When we go for funding, we will want the highest valuation we can convince the investors of. One important valuation attribute is the corporation's legal ownership of the intellectual property produced by the engineers who build the system. That intellectual property is not just patents, but the source code, web site design, system ar…

The first full stop on that INVENTIONS clause comes at the 1019 th character. Amazing sentence construction designed to dazzle with BS.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#58

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

6cxs2hd6 wrote: post #52
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #48

My startup is compensating the engineers with restricted shares in the corporation. When we go for funding, we will want the highest valuation we can convince the investors of. One important valuation attribute is the corporation's legal ownership of the intellectual property produced by the engineers who build the system. That intellectual property is not just patents, but the source code, web site design, system ar…

I'm not sure I understand this language: > I will promptly disclose In writing to the Company all discoveries, developments, designs, ideas ...yada yada... made, conceived, reduced to practice, or learned by me (either alone or jointly with others) during the term of the Independent Contractor Agreement between the Company and me and within 12 months thereafter.... Let's I work for you, then quit -- or you fire me. E…

The purpose of the 12 months thereafter (as I see it) is to ensure that the contractor will continue to support patent activities that they participated in during employment.

If they conceived the idea during the term of the contract and the company pursued a patent, they are committing to continue supporting the company's efforts even if they leave before the patent is granted. It costs a lot of money to patent an idea and that would go to waste if the inventor did not provide that assistance.

For any other purpose, I doubt the scenario you presented would be enforceable, particularly in California.

[edit] FWIW, I would have stricken the wording that implied the company owned any new ideas post-employment if the engineer said it was a concern to them. I do want them to support the patent activities, but once I stop paying them, their ideas belong to whoever they sign up to next, if anyone. None of them so far have taken issue with the 12 months.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#59

Post by A_COMPUTER »

zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

I basically did whistle my way out the door because of this.

I worked as a contractor for a very large defense company. After a year, they offered me full time employment. I specifically asked if there was a "we own everything you make" clause in the employment agreement, but I was assured there was not. I went through about five digital form contracts, and when I got to the last one, it had the clause in there. I told the woman that I wanted to amend the contract and she huffed and told me they don't do that. I replied that I was promised that I would not have to agree to such a clause, and she told me that it was mandatory, so I could take it or leave it. I asked if there was anyone in HR I could talk to about this, and was told no. So I stood up and said "please escort me out the door, starting immediately I am resigning. At the gate, I would like the security guard to search my things." (it was a secured facility, and I didn't want anyone to claim I was stealing anything later.) She asked me if I was serious, and I said yes. I was berated for how much time and money was wasted on getting me ready for employment, and I replied I was promised repeatedly that I would not have to sign away my rights, and this was absolutely a deal breaker and I didn't appreciate being told repeatedly this would be honored until the very last minute. So really, my time was being wasted too. This really, really didn't go over well. My heart was beating like crazy the entire time. My former boss was furious, the HR person was furious. The security guard was cool about it though.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#60

Post by nraynaud »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #59
zecho wrote: post #42

Maybe don't sign these types of contracts? We are fortunate enough that even the most mediocre among us can hold out for the next employer that doesn't demand this kind of control over you, or start your own company. I don't give a shit what a company says about their culture of work/life balance or whatever. If I see blanket IP clauses unrelated to non-compete, or like arbitration clauses that remove us from civil c…

I basically did whistle my way out the door because of this. I worked as a contractor for a very large defense company. After a year, they offered me full time employment. I specifically asked if there was a "we own everything you make" clause in the employment agreement, but I was assured there was not. I went through about five digital form contracts, and when I got to the last one, it had the clause in there. I to…

walking the walk. Literally.
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