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Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

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Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#51

Post by mikeash »

spitx wrote: post #15
onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

I want all of the glory and none of the bruises too, if possible. I'd be very suspicious of anyone who said otherwise.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#52

Post by krapp »

msg wrote: post #14
spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system. The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more than they did Aa…

He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system.

His belief that justice would someday inevitably prevail belied the injustice of his system. To the degree that any of what you suggest was true in the day, it wasn't true at all for blacks, less so for those who didn't 'keep their place'.

In this modern case, Edward Snowden is the beneficiary of far, far more privilege and opportunity for fairness from his own government than Martin Luther King could ever have hoped for. Just imagine what the discourse would be if Edward Snowden turned out to be Arabic, or Muslim, or went by a Muslim sounding name. If he fled to the wrong country they might already be picking smoking chunks of him off a cafe wall. There would be no debate in the media as to whether he was a 'hero' or 'traitor'.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#53

Post by genwin »

spitx wrote: post #15
onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

Maybe Snowden wants neither glory nor bruises.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#54

Post by pilsetnieks »

spitx wrote: post #33
david_shaw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." That's correct, and I agree that participating in civil disobedience, by nature, requires being willing to "do the time" as part of making a point. Whistleblowers, however, are a different story. I don't believe that Snowden was trying to be a martyr for Americans' right to privacy; I think he saw something tha…

What about Bradley Manning? That's as pristinely analogous a case as it gets to Snowden's, with diametrically opposed approaches the actors took to pursue their causes. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bradley_Mannin...

Manning was a soldier subject to the US Uniform code of military justice, essentially a completely different legal system of its own.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#55

Post by teawithcarl »

Apocryphon wrote: post #35

I've been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren't they very neutral? Or Switzerland, the nation that's synonymous with neutrality?

Seems he'll be litigating in HK, perhaps years.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#56

Post by foobarbazqux »

prollyignored wrote: post #50
unreal37 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Snowden did the best he could do under the circumstances. Expose the truth, run to a safe place, and then identify himself publicly. He's not running, he just prefers freedom to a jail cell. Who doesn't? MLK and Rosa Parks weren't facing 100 years in jail or the death penalty, were they?

The reason why propaganda works, in my opinion is, you send a "simple" message a 1000 times. Here the message is "young narcissistic man, who ran away" "But bob, you are only arguing the means, not the end. Do you think, the idea of a surveillance-free America should be stiffled ?" That question, will never be asked with equal flair, in a one way propaganda.

Yeah, the greatest accomplishments in history are often linked to narcissistic personalities, generally because the person needs to prove something to the world to make up for their secretly poor self-esteem.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#57

Post by [deleted] »

glurgh wrote: post #34
gruseom wrote: post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together. The infographic is taken from the South China Morning Post, a mainstream media outlet. It's followed by some verbiage about the speed of the Hong Kong judiciary and then a mention of a murder trial (actually, two trials) that's gone on for nearly 10 years - but that's a murder tr…

[deleted]

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#58

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

gruseom wrote: post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

Not a resident, but I have spent some time there.

Phone service is indeed cheap. SIM cards are bought at every kind of venue right on down to carts on the street. No ID needed, no contract. You give money, you get SIM card with nn minutes. Handsets are cheap too, really cheap, like throw away cheap. I hadn't thought about that from a signals intelligence perspective, but I bet that fact combined with the density of people would make it quite challenging to find his signal from among the others. Speaking of people density, guaranteed, no drone strikes in HK. Also, probably no movie-style snatch and grabs in HK. Aside from the tension that would cause in US/China foreign affairs, traffic would prevent that from happening most hours of the day. It would definitely not go unnoticed.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#59

Post by frozenport »

unreal37 wrote: post #22
spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

I think Snowden did the best he could do under the circumstances. Expose the truth, run to a safe place, and then identify himself publicly. He's not running, he just prefers freedom to a jail cell. Who doesn't? MLK and Rosa Parks weren't facing 100 years in jail or the death penalty, were they?

Don't forget that MLK was shot.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#60

Post by AVTizzle »

glurgh wrote: post #34
gruseom wrote: post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together. The infographic is taken from the South China Morning Post, a mainstream media outlet. It's followed by some verbiage about the speed of the Hong Kong judiciary and then a mention of a murder trial (actually, two trials) that's gone on for nearly 10 years - but that's a murder tr…

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. I don't imagine an "interest in Chinese language and culture" would have anything to do with this decision.
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