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Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

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Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#51
post #16
post #8

Anybody knows how other companies like universal's animation department (ice age, despicable me, ...) stand technology-wise? From the visuals, i always assumed pixar is setting the standards but now knowing that they just start to use unified raytracing, the gap might not be that big...

Why does it matter that much what technology is in the backend? You lead the industry with results, not with the means to get to those results. If I can make my webapp better (however you define "better") than my competitors' using PHP and MySQL, while they're making theirs using Ruby on Rails, MongoDB, etc,etc. Does the tech stack in the background matter, aside from making a nice article?

Yes, it makes a lot of difference.

There's the obvious render time, but actually render time isn't that important - studios are happy to wait up to 30 hours for a 4k frame on the farm if that's what it takes for a shot. But they don't want artists waiting around, so they want very quick iterations and previews of what the artists are doing, as it's the artists who cost money.

This is why global illumination has taken off over the last 5/6 years (thanks largely to SPI and Bluesky showing it could be done), as although the render times are slower, it means lighting the scene (by phyiscally-based shading) is much quicker and you don't need as many hacks as you did with PRMan (light maps, shadow maps, reflection maps, point caches, etc). You can literally model scenes with lights as they are in the real world.

On top of this, there's how easy it is to do very complex shots and change just bits of it - tools like Katana allow hugely complex scenes to be managed and rendered very efficiently, with very little work from artists. Studios who don't have similar tools often duplicate and waste a lot of time doing things that should be easy.

For example, Weta on IronMan 3 wasted a lot of time doing all the different suits, as they didn't have a decent asset-based pipeline that would have allowed them to re-use a lot of shaders, assets for each suit.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#52
post #8

Anybody knows how other companies like universal's animation department (ice age, despicable me, ...) stand technology-wise? From the visuals, i always assumed pixar is setting the standards but now knowing that they just start to use unified raytracing, the gap might not be that big...

Pixar have a lot of technology, but they come from an animation tradition rather than a studio that is concerned with photoreal CGI. Renderman has always been a system for "painting" the scene you want - it's an artist's toolbox.

It's only recently that advances in processing power have made physically-based ray tracing practical for film production - particularly with the take-up of the Arnold renderer by various other studios. Suddenly lighting becomes a matter of placing lights and letting the computer do the work rather than needing to carefully set up the correct impression of light in the way a painter might. So it requires quite a bit of change of approach from the artist, and you can imagine why there'd be a bit of a cultural problem introducing this.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#53
post #16
post #8

Anybody knows how other companies like universal's animation department (ice age, despicable me, ...) stand technology-wise? From the visuals, i always assumed pixar is setting the standards but now knowing that they just start to use unified raytracing, the gap might not be that big...

Why does it matter that much what technology is in the backend? You lead the industry with results, not with the means to get to those results. If I can make my webapp better (however you define "better") than my competitors' using PHP and MySQL, while they're making theirs using Ruby on Rails, MongoDB, etc,etc. Does the tech stack in the background matter, aside from making a nice article?

Many of us are here because we like knowing how things work, not just their end result.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#54

I was surprised that ray tracing in Pixar was historically a clunky, haphazard process. I always thought of it as this smooth, polished machine like something you would see at an Apple store. Life inside the sausage factory never quite looks like what outsiders would expect.

A lot of the tools in pixar are wonderfully clunky. They went through a phase of hiring hip young things fresh out of MIT to write tools. Instead of nice friendly tools that play well together, they got a lot of domain specific languages.

Yeah, they're starting to use off-the-shelf software a lot more recently...

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#55

I would love them to re-generate Brave with ray tracing, I'm guessing though that would take too many resources even for a blue-ray edition.

I think the worst part is the amount of man-hours it would take, not compute hours (but maybe that's what you meant?). If the change is as deep as it sounds like, the entire tooling support changed, so all scenes would have to be re-lit by artists, not-entirely-from-scratch but worse than you think.

REYES-rendered scenes that fake global illumination are pretty arcanely hacked together. Just making a legacy scene ray-traced would make it look worse, not better.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#56
post #8

Anybody knows how other companies like universal's animation department (ice age, despicable me, ...) stand technology-wise? From the visuals, i always assumed pixar is setting the standards but now knowing that they just start to use unified raytracing, the gap might not be that big...

i think it's James Cameron that sets the standards

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#57
I was wondering what Toy Story would look like if they re-rendered it with today's technology. Well, it turns out they already did! It was part of the theatrical re-releases of Toy Story and Toy Story 2 in 3D.

http://www.bigscreenanimation.com/2008/09/toy-story-re-relea...

Were these re-rendered versions released in 2D on Blu-ray?

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#58
post #49
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

11.5 hours on average for Cars 2 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20068109-52/new-technology...

They must do them heavily in parallel then; otherwise it would take 170 years to render the movie.

Haha, yes, yes they do. You can see a few pictures of Pixar's render farm in [1]. According to [2] (which is where that 11.5 hours comes from) for Cars 2, they had 12,500 CPU cores for rendering.

[1] http://www.slashfilm.com/cool-stuff-a-look-at-pixar-and-luca... [2] http://jalopnik.com/5813587/12500-cpu-cores-were-required-to...

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#59
post #37

This is wrong actually - they've been using ray tracing for ages (all ambient occlusion in PRMan is done with raytracing, by sending out occlusion rays in a hemisphere around the shading point). What's new with MU is they're using both physically-plausible shading (where the shading is based off physically-based BRDF lighting algorithms, which gives much more realistic results), and global illumination path-tracing f…

They explain the extent to which they used to use raytracing in the article - is it misrepresented? It's in a direct quote so I doubt it.

Re: Pixar's Chris Horne Sheds New Light on Monsters University

#60
post #9

What sort of raytracing are they using? Are they going all the way to an unbiased global light transport algorithm (like LuxRender) or just using basic raytracing (like PovRay)? Are they using an existing renderer? If not, are they releasing their own like they did with RenderMan? Are they rendering with CPUs or with GPUs? How much time per frame does it take them with how many cores of what sort?

They're using uni-directional path tracing - if they're using PRMan 17 (Which I think they were), it'll probably be unbiased like with Arnold. So it's unbiased, but unidirectional, unlike LuxRender's MLT (two-way path tracing).

PRMan 17's a fairly good raytracer now (Arnold was giving PRMan a bit of a kicking in this department over the last two years).

All on the CPU - there's no way GPUs can cope with the size of textures and geometry feature films need to cope with (up to 200 GB of textures and Geometry in some of the complicated scenes) - there's no way that's fitting on a GPU.

I don't know what Pixar have, but SPI (who use their own version of Arnold) used to have quad socket i7s, so 64-thread machines with 96 GB of RAM two years ago - some of the more complex frames were taking +30 hours at 2k.

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