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6 Months with C#

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Re: 6 Months with C#

#51

Post by tucaz »

nkohari wrote: post #32
tucaz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everytime I see someone talking about "unlimited" something my spider sense ticks off. Except for Google, Amazon and some other big guys, most of companies will worry about lots of things before what you mentioned become a problem. Also, AWS, Azure and AppHarbor have takem the license problem out of the way.

AWS doesn't really take the license problem away -- it just rolls the cost into the price of the instance, which is significantly higher for Windows.

And will only become a problem when you reach a huge scale. If by that time it is still a problem then maybe your problem is not having a good enough business model.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#52

Post by seanalex »

I've been using C# for several years, and have bounced between it, Java, Node.js for my side-projects. After all said and done, I keep coming back to C#. I feel more productive and can design and churn out code quicker than say in a Node project. Overall, I actually do enjoy coding in C# and using .NET more than any other language I have experienced so far. The day I tried to use Drupal was the day I realized I made a serious mistake for not thinking I could do things better or quicker in C#/.Net instead.

Overall though, Microsoft is trying to move to an "ecosystem" platform. Exampes are Nuget powering their closed/open-source ecosystem for projects and Azure server templates. Even their latest ASP.NET MVC 4 is pushing several open source libraries onto their default project template. They truly see they couldn't win the web battle with WPF/Silverlight as their only options, so they are going for a different angle here in the last year. Additionally, a lot of interesting things are coming out of Microsoft and its employees, such as the open-sourced SignalR which is actively being updated and may become a standard for C# webapps.

I realize C#/.NET is not the go-to language for small web-apps yet, primarily due to licensing, but give it time. I say if you are on the fence, and are interested at all in C#, give it a shot! There are many free options for development IDE's and hosting provided by Microsoft. For example, you can use Visual Studio Express and host up to ten websites for free on Azure.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#53

Post by sultezdukes »

nkohari wrote: post #41
sultezdukes wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a huge fan of Miguel and the rest of the Xamarin crew, and I'd love to see a universal implementation of the CLR take dominance. I think maybe 5 years ago the CLR had a real chance to win in the battle of multi-language runtimes, but at this point I think the war is going to the JVM. (Chalk that up to yet another short-sighted decision by Microsoft.) The problem is that Java (the language) completely dominates th…

I agree with what you're saying, but without a proper implementation outside of Windows, the CLR is currently a place where great languages go to die. Mono is functional, but is basically unsupported (for everything but mobile).

the CLR is currently a place where great languages go to die

No, F# is completely supported by MS. And that's the problem with the alternative languages on the JVM. Decision makers are wary of anything that isn't officially supported by Oracle. There are other problems with languages like Scala and Clojure that have nothing to do with official support, but that's another story.

The mono story is an interesting one. At first people thought it would allow cheap deployments of ASP.NET on Linux servers, but it's really carved out a niche for itself on the linux desktop, in gaming (Unity, Sony's dev kits), and now mobile. What's funny is the JVM is completely irrelevant on mobile, compared to .NET/Mono. Just now Oracle is pulling their heads out of their asses and trying to get the JVM to work on iOS.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#54

Post by sultezdukes »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #50

Microsoft is trying too hard to make C# answer to every single technology trend, adding dynamic type, asynchronous methods, etc. In most cases you wind up with a working but much worse alternative to the real thing. For example, here's how you create an anonymous function that returns a string in C#: (new Func (() => { return "foo"; }))(); That's pretty awful and as a result you rarely see anyone doing stuff like tha…

no, that piece of code that you contrived up is awful, not .NET's anonymous functions.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#55

Post by yread »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #50

Microsoft is trying too hard to make C# answer to every single technology trend, adding dynamic type, asynchronous methods, etc. In most cases you wind up with a working but much worse alternative to the real thing. For example, here's how you create an anonymous function that returns a string in C#: (new Func (() => { return "foo"; }))(); That's pretty awful and as a result you rarely see anyone doing stuff like tha…

eh? How about

       ()=>"foo"

?

Re: 6 Months with C#

#56

Post by MatthewPhillips »

yread wrote: post #55
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #50

Microsoft is trying too hard to make C# answer to every single technology trend, adding dynamic type, asynchronous methods, etc. In most cases you wind up with a working but much worse alternative to the real thing. For example, here's how you create an anonymous function that returns a string in C#: (new Func (() => { return "foo"; }))(); That's pretty awful and as a result you rarely see anyone doing stuff like tha…

eh? How about ()=>"foo" ?

Picking on the simplicity of my example completely misses the point.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#57

Post by yread »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #48
psremote7 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are all people assuming Windows is gui only? You can script practically anything using powershell and multi server management using powershell remoting. System center + ad group policy is light years ahead anything else.

Because almost no one actually does that, despite it existing, and tools and documentation for it on the net are very sparse.

In my experience all the windows sysadmins I've met were doing EVERYTHING by commandline. Either through netsh and so on or they memorized .MSC commands for opening a particular GUI and then use a keyshortcut to flip a switch or so. You can hardly see what's going on

Re: 6 Months with C#

#58

Post by happy_dino »

sultezdukes wrote: post #38
nkohari wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a fan of Mono for a long time; unfortunately, we've had a lot of trouble trying to scale it in production. Our application was originally built for .NET (on Windows). It was successfully ported to Mono, but we continue to have strange problems (machine load average going to 50+ and becoming unresponsive, etc.) which we believe are related to the Mono GC. After spending a good amount of effort trying to fix…

I'm a huge fan of Miguel and the rest of the Xamarin crew, and I'd love to see a universal implementation of the CLR take dominance. I think maybe 5 years ago the CLR had a real chance to win in the battle of multi-language runtimes, but at this point I think the war is going to the JVM. (Chalk that up to yet another short-sighted decision by Microsoft.) The problem is that Java (the language) completely dominates th…

> F# actually have significant percentages of uptake because they're actually supported by Microsoft. Scala, Clojure, etc.... are just miniscule blips on the radar in comparison.

I think that's pretty much wrong.

Despite Microsoft shipping F# support in their main IDE, pretty much no one uses it. Can you name one popular library which switched from C# to F#?

Compare that to e. g. Scala: Huge amount of adoption compared to F#, despite _not_ shipping with any IDE by default. One of the most popular Java web frameworks switched from Java to Scala recently.

Even the F# “elite” is aware of it and complaining about how Scala has a a lot higher adoption (and a larger ecosystem and more developers, libraries, conferences, user groups, support, ...), so I'm a bit surprised by your statement.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#59

Post by nkohari »

tucaz wrote: post #51
nkohari wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS doesn't really take the license problem away -- it just rolls the cost into the price of the instance, which is significantly higher for Windows.

And will only become a problem when you reach a huge scale. If by that time it is still a problem then maybe your problem is not having a good enough business model.

We're seed-funded and have somewhere around 70 instances in AWS, almost all Linux. In our business, our margin depends largely on our operational costs, and using Windows would be a significant hit to our bottom line.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#60

Post by nkohari »

sultezdukes wrote: post #53
nkohari wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you're saying, but without a proper implementation outside of Windows, the CLR is currently a place where great languages go to die. Mono is functional, but is basically unsupported (for everything but mobile).

the CLR is currently a place where great languages go to die No, F# is completely supported by MS. And that's the problem with the alternative languages on the JVM. Decision makers are wary of anything that isn't officially supported by Oracle. There are other problems with languages like Scala and Clojure that have nothing to do with official support, but that's another story. The mono story is an interesting one. A…

F# is supported by Microsoft on the Windows implementation of the CLR, which is great unless you're not willing to use Windows.

You're right that the JVM itself is irrelevant on mobile, but via Android the Java ecosystem still plays a role.

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