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6 Months with C#

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Re: 6 Months with C#

#31

Post by brass9 »

sultezdukes wrote: post #12

Good writeup, and I agree with much of his post. Going back to Java from C# at the language level is just painful. The Java library/framework is more complete and diverse than the .NET one, but it's actually improved alot for .NET in recent years with Microsoft becoming much more open source friendly, the ALT.DEV community, Mono, etc... The .NET community is much more comfortable with alternative not from Microsoft t…

> IMHO though, the JVM has a better alternative language ecosystem than the .NET one. Yeah, .NET has F# builtin to VS these days, but doesn't have things like Scala/Clojure (not first class citizens), Kotlin, Ceylon, etc...

And the irony is: .net was touted initially as a polyglot platform, whereas JVM has been primarily associated with Java only.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#32

Post by nkohari »

tucaz wrote: post #18
josteink wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that hosting your code suddenly goes from a simple equation about what hardware will cost you, in terms of actual servers, virtual servers or other solutions to a matter of involving licensing software just to have your code run. It means that if you ever need to scale up, you'll have to buy more licenses. It prohibits unlimited, automatic scaling. It's also the once a month embarassing ordeal with sites bei…

Everytime I see someone talking about "unlimited" something my spider sense ticks off. Except for Google, Amazon and some other big guys, most of companies will worry about lots of things before what you mentioned become a problem. Also, AWS, Azure and AppHarbor have takem the license problem out of the way.

AWS doesn't really take the license problem away -- it just rolls the cost into the price of the instance, which is significantly higher for Windows.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#33

Post by brass9 »

spo81rty wrote: post #8

I don't understand why everyone on HN hates Windows server so much. From an administration standpoint they are much easier to setup and use thanks to their GUIs. Windows is very standardized and has very good management tools and interfaces. C#, ASP MVC, and Visual Studio are extremely good tools. I've programmed in C# for 10 years and never had a project I could not do quickly with it. It has very good support of 3r…

Having to manage both Windows (IIS) and Linux servers (mostly Debian and a few CentOS'), I much prefer tinkering with Linux CLI rather than clickety-clicking on pretty GUIs.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#34

Post by sultezdukes »

brass9 wrote: post #31
sultezdukes wrote: post #12

Good writeup, and I agree with much of his post. Going back to Java from C# at the language level is just painful. The Java library/framework is more complete and diverse than the .NET one, but it's actually improved alot for .NET in recent years with Microsoft becoming much more open source friendly, the ALT.DEV community, Mono, etc... The .NET community is much more comfortable with alternative not from Microsoft t…

> IMHO though, the JVM has a better alternative language ecosystem than the .NET one. Yeah, .NET has F# builtin to VS these days, but doesn't have things like Scala/Clojure (not first class citizens), Kotlin, Ceylon, etc... And the irony is: .net was touted initially as a polyglot platform, whereas JVM has been primarily associated with Java only.

There's really not much irony there. VB.NET and C# were released together from the beginning, where Sun only thought of Java (the language) until too late in the game for them.

Sun was screwed because of factors beyond Java, but because of internal politics there, they never realized the full potential of the JVM.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#35

Post by psremote7 »

spo81rty wrote: post #8

I don't understand why everyone on HN hates Windows server so much. From an administration standpoint they are much easier to setup and use thanks to their GUIs. Windows is very standardized and has very good management tools and interfaces. C#, ASP MVC, and Visual Studio are extremely good tools. I've programmed in C# for 10 years and never had a project I could not do quickly with it. It has very good support of 3r…

Why are all people assuming Windows is gui only?

You can script practically anything using powershell and multi server management using powershell remoting.

System center + ad group policy is light years ahead anything else.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#36

Post by Supermighty »

nkohari wrote: post #25
spo81rty wrote: post #8

I don't understand why everyone on HN hates Windows server so much. From an administration standpoint they are much easier to setup and use thanks to their GUIs. Windows is very standardized and has very good management tools and interfaces. C#, ASP MVC, and Visual Studio are extremely good tools. I've programmed in C# for 10 years and never had a project I could not do quickly with it. It has very good support of 3r…

> From an administration standpoint they are much easier to setup and use thanks to their GUIs. Windows is very standardized and has very good management tools and interfaces. Having managed both, I have to disagree very strongly. A GUI works fine when you want to manage one machine (although it's kind of a pain in comparison to SSH), but when you want to manage dozens, you need sharper knives. The tools available fo…

Disclaimer: my personal experience is managing Linux machines.

I think it's easier to manager a service on Linux that has one, or maybe two, text files for configuration. They often ship with every option available, even is commented out, and a little note detailing exactly what the option is for.

My only real experience with Windows Server was having to add a new mime type for .fla files for IIS. The .fla were downloading instead of playing. The option was buried deep in in multiple configuration windows and dialogue boxes. It took forever compared to what a simple AddType would have taken in an Apache text file.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#37

Post by xradionut »

josteink wrote: post #10
tucaz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not write server code for Windows? I fail to see a major reason that would stop one from doing that. Actually, its a pretty good, well supported and documented and stable platform.

It means that hosting your code suddenly goes from a simple equation about what hardware will cost you, in terms of actual servers, virtual servers or other solutions to a matter of involving licensing software just to have your code run. It means that if you ever need to scale up, you'll have to buy more licenses. It prohibits unlimited, automatic scaling. It's also the once a month embarassing ordeal with sites bei…

Actually it means that you may need to consider a solution like Azure if you have a public facing site or app and if you want a MS solution.

There's other ways of patching servers besides all-at-once...

Re: 6 Months with C#

#38

Post by sultezdukes »

nkohari wrote: post #20
gambiting wrote: post #7

Mono is actually finding its way to new platforms all the time. I was surprised to find out that the recently released Playstation Mobile SDK is based entirely on Mono, so Playstation Vita runs it. And I am pretty sure there's an implementation available on Android. As for iOS there's Xamarin. MonoDevelop on MacOS is also quite good.

I've been a fan of Mono for a long time; unfortunately, we've had a lot of trouble trying to scale it in production. Our application was originally built for .NET (on Windows). It was successfully ported to Mono, but we continue to have strange problems (machine load average going to 50+ and becoming unresponsive, etc.) which we believe are related to the Mono GC. After spending a good amount of effort trying to fix…

I'm a huge fan of Miguel and the rest of the Xamarin crew, and I'd love to see a universal implementation of the CLR take dominance. I think maybe 5 years ago the CLR had a real chance to win in the battle of multi-language runtimes, but at this point I think the war is going to the JVM. (Chalk that up to yet another short-sighted decision by Microsoft.)

The problem is that Java (the language) completely dominates the JVM landscape still. I don't see Oracle in the game at all as far as contributing/endorsing something else, and obviously Sun was completely oblivious to anything else until it was too late in the game for them.

If you look at the CLR, VB.NET has and F# actually have significant percentages of uptake because they're actually supported by Microsoft. Scala, Clojure, etc.... are just miniscule blips on the radar in comparison.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#39

Post by Supermighty »

Supermighty wrote: post #36
nkohari wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From an administration standpoint they are much easier to setup and use thanks to their GUIs. Windows is very standardized and has very good management tools and interfaces. Having managed both, I have to disagree very strongly. A GUI works fine when you want to manage one machine (although it's kind of a pain in comparison to SSH), but when you want to manage dozens, you need sharper knives. The tools available fo…

Disclaimer: my personal experience is managing Linux machines. I think it's easier to manager a service on Linux that has one, or maybe two, text files for configuration. They often ship with every option available, even is commented out, and a little note detailing exactly what the option is for. My only real experience with Windows Server was having to add a new mime type for .fla files for IIS. The .fla were downl…

Actually, I really love the annotated text configs. It's like I'm talking directly to the developers.

Re: 6 Months with C#

#40

Post by brass9 »

nkohari wrote: post #29
stevenelliottjr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's too easy! Nerds would rather spend countless hours at the command line figuring things out than having a nice interface to get stuff configured and running. As a developer, I don't want to spend my life also configuring servers - sometimes it's just nice to get things working without a ton of hassle. Of course nowadays we use Azure or AppHarbor for everything but we still have some services running on II…

No one wants to spend their life configuring servers. That's why tools like Chef and Puppet exist -- so you can write code that will do it for you. They just don't work as well for Windows as they do for Linux. After a significant amount of experience in the .NET ecosystem, I believe the majority of the anti-Microsoft sentiment is well-deserved. At one point, there was a lot of innovation in .NET OSS, but it seems to…

> After a significant amount of experience in the .NET ecosystem, I believe the majority of the anti-Microsoft sentiment is well-deserved. At one point, there was a lot of innovation in .NET OSS, but it seems to have ground to a halt within the last few years. It's possible I'm just projecting because of my own experience, but it seems like many of the more influential members of the .NET ecosystem have gone on to do other things.

That's not entirely true. Pretty much the entire ASP.net MVC stack has now been open-source. Entity Framework is also open-source.

I agree, 3rd party OSS ecosystem is much smaller than Java.

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