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Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

wiki.ubuntu.com

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Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#51
post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

I switched my personal computer from Ubuntu some time ago. It's kind of startling when you see the divergence from core Linux tooling that Ubuntu's been doing.

I believe this is the kick in the pants my team at work needs to evaluate moving to Debian deployments instead of Ubuntu.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#52
post #29

On the one hand, this looks like one good way to get rid of the massive bag of hurt that is X; on the other, seriously Canonical? Re-inventing another huge chunk of the stack just because? NIH syndrome much?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is wrong with X, anyway?

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#53
post #14

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

Regardless of the technical considerations, Linux and its surrounding ecosystem has a long history of many different companies co-operating on core software. Canonical's philosophy seems to fly directly against that - so far we have: Launchpad / Upstart / Unity / Mir Launchpad is free-software by name only, and Canonical actively discourage you to setup your own instance. Upstart hasn't been widely adopted outside of…

upstart is used by the current release of RHEL, but it's true that Red Hat has signaled that systemd will come to RHEL as well (Fedora now comes with systemd as far as I know).

I don't see the problem with then using whatever they want, if it provides a good solution, when upstart was developed systemd wasn't even a viable alternative, for me it still is not if stability is what you want and run on a non-desktop system.

Exploring Android internals I much SurfaceFlinger than X in my understanding of its architecture.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes The linux idiots have one glaring example: PulseAudio Throw away user experience, system stability, judicious use of CPU for what? It certainly improves certain details of the user experience, when it works correctly , also usually consuming more CPU than flash player

Am I the only person in the world who has never had anything but a pleasant experience with PulseAudio? The first time I noticed that I was using it, I had already been using it for a year...

Let me ask you some questions then:

- How often do you reboot your computer

- What audio softwares you use the most

For me, PA crashes around once a week (and this is with the latest version I tried), or just plain stops working (like muting the sound, garbled sound, etc)

Not to mention the delay that happens while switching songs in mplayer for example. Use ALSA and song switch is instantaneous.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#55
post #31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm much the opposite: I keep giving Ubuntu a shot, only to find myself disappointed by GNOME, Unity, and the other usual suspects of the DE world. With no need for Unity & Friends, I just use stock Debian or Crunchbang. I'm rooting for Canonical to do well with this so that I might finally be able to switch to using Ubuntu in order to get a well-supported, well-integrated, targeted-by-most, "Fast and Fluid" Desktop…

I do agree with you on the well-supported and well-integrated part. Ubuntu has the polish and ease of use of OS X with the great hardware support of (nearly) Windows, with the solidity of a steadfast GNU/Linux foundation. But whenever I hear about a new development in the Canonical world, it's always about something that appeases consumers rather than power users (which Ubuntu has been targeted at). For developers wh…

As a power user, I don't really feel I have particular unfilled needs in any Linux environment. Most of what I need, development-wise, I already have. All that requires is a shell and the ability to configure my apt sources. That said, I don't do much OS-level anything. For that, you will probably always need a distro that assumes less about your graphical environment.

What I do miss from other OSes/environments is that sense of a tighter integration. I spent many years not missing it, having originally gotten into GNU/Linux by cobbling together my own crummy environment in Gentoo (on which Sabayon is based).

It wasn't really until I first tried Windows 7 a few years back that I realized that if I actually wanted to use the latest this-or-that application in a seamless (dare I say enjoyable?) manner I needed to stop clinging to my obscure WMs.

And yet, to this day, I'm actually still clinging.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#56
From the MirSpec at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec:

"Why Not Wayland / Weston?

An obvious clarification first: Wayland is a protocol definition that defines how a client application should talk to a compositor component. It touches areas like surface creation/destruction, graphics buffer allocation/management, input event handling and a rough prototype for the integration of shell components. However, our evaluation of the protocol definition revealed that the Wayland protocol suffers from multiple problems, including:

The input event handling partly recreates the X semantics and is thus likely to expose similar problems to the ones we described in the introductory section. The shell integration parts of the protocol are considered privileged from our perspective and we'd rather avoid having any sort of shell behavior defined in the protocol. However, we still think that Wayland's attempt at standardizing the communication between clients and the display server component is very sensible and useful, but it didn't fit our requirements and we decided to go for the following architecture w.r.t. to protocol-integration:

* A protocol-agnostic inner core that is extremely well-defined, well-tested and portable. * An outer-shell together with a frontend-firewall that allow us to port our display server to arbitrary graphics stacks and bind it to multiple protocols.

In summary, we have not chosen Wayland/Weston as our basis for delivering a next-generation user experience as it does not fulfill our requirements completely. More to this, with our protocol- and platform-agnostic approach, we can make sure that we reach our goal of a consistent and beautiful user experience across platforms and device form factors. However, Wayland support could be added either by providing a Wayland-specific frontend implementation for our display server or by providing a client-side implementation of libwayland that ultimately talks to Mir."

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#57

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

Basically, Canonical appears not to be publically consulting with the other distros (e.g., RH, Gentoo, Arch) about their changes. If they were, and there was a general consensus of a plan, I would personally not be bothered at all. But they seem to be content to pursue unilateral forking of what Linux means, and IMO that's not ok.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#58
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Layman discovers that Linux can possibly be just as shiny as Mac OS. Why do we want the layman to be using Linux? To give Valve more Linux customers or something? We should let them be. Laymen will invariably be better served by Microsoft or Apple, trying to win them over in some sort of misguided drive to "win" market-share seems foolish. Linux should focus on it's niche, and Microsoft and Apple theirs. This m…

Practically: I want to be using a system that I can be confident has good hardware & software support, not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work. That means getting at least a few % market share so that other companies take it seriously. There's also an ideological angle: many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open s…

> not always double checking everything I buy to make sure it will work.

I feel like we've been there since... 2007? My last several purchases were made with zero caution or research anyway, maybe I've just been getting lucky.

> many Linux users feel that there's something wrong with a world where only the technically adept can use a free, open source operating system.

That's fine and all, I don't buy into that ideology but it is fine if others do. Perhaps someone should warn these unsuspecting masses that "Linux for your technologically illiterate grandmother" advocates are not as pragmatic as they may claim to be. I feel like these people are dressing Linux up as something that it is not in order to sell it to people who, were it presented honestly, would not pay it a second glance.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#59
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not Debian?

Debian stable tends to be too stable for my tastes; Fedora is much more bleeding edge. It's just a matter of preference, really.

If it's fresh packages you want, surely you know there's more than just stable. Have you given Sid a try? I've been running it for years on my non-server machines, and I haven't had any more or less problems with it than other bleeding edge distros.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#60
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't Linux idiots (whatever that means) or their cautionary tendencies, it's Canonical.

Yes The linux idiots have one glaring example: PulseAudio Throw away user experience, system stability, judicious use of CPU for what? It certainly improves certain details of the user experience, when it works correctly , also usually consuming more CPU than flash player

> The linux idiots have one glaring example: PulseAudio

PulseAudio works wonderfully for me. It allows software mixing, something that's never been possible for me prior to PulseAudio, and it never crashes.

It also gives me a single place to control volume on a per-app basis (pavucontrol). That's not something I had prior to PulseAudio, either.

I can also keep a single desktop session going for months.

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