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The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

torrentfreak.com

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Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#51

Post by ErrantX »

mixmax wrote: post #43
ErrantX wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont buy that. It is expressing an opinion. I do respect the excellent way they are using the media and the internet to show off their cause. I dont respect what they do. I disagree calling them idiots is disrespectful: because, well, they are.... (in my opinion):) There is a huge difference between respect and dislike. Perhaps I should be clear and say they act like idiots. Then its an opinion... I would edit the…

Idiot is a pretty strong word, and using it requires some arguments and substance besides "in my opinion they are idiots". Intelligent discourse is based on good arguments and respect for the other party.

I wish I had never used the word: I really dont see it as particularly strong... perhaps it is cultural differences getting in the way. But a single word is getting in the way of a good debate elsewhere in the thread - which is a bit sad.

(for the record I think I did back up my statement: they are idiots because they are helping and encouraging people the steal with no thought as to the consequences and believe they are above the law to the point of being. And, importantly, refuse to be reasoned with - and yes I have tried.)

I agree with the good arguments - but respect should not be automatic. I would look for it to be earned in an argument (probably I did not do much to earn any yesterday). My other point, of course, is that TPB (at whom my remark was directed) are not here and so are not one of the debating parties... :)

EDIT: I am not particularly worried by the downmods. People can express their opinions. However downmodding based on wording feels a bit short sighted... downmodding based on percieved bias (which a friend of mine pointed out) I would agree with (because it did introduce a bias.. which was a mistake).

(Also it's a bit sad to see this bumped up to the first page... this surely is stuff for the "back room")

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#52

Post by sam_in_nyc »

lethain wrote: post #44
chris11 wrote: post #9

Could anyone estimate the costs of running The Pirate Bay? I've heard that the site could be grossing millions a year from advertising, but I'm also assuming that the costs are extremely high. I was interested in finding out financial information for the site, but it looks like it won't be released.

I imagine it's less than you're suggesting, because they're not serving the files themselves, so their bandwidth would be relatively low compared to a photo or video sharing site.

Doesn't tracking millions of torrents require a massive amount of bandwidth? I'm no expert on bittorrent protocol, but I'm sure millions of clients pinging "I'm a seeder" or "I'm a leecher" adds up.

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#53

Post by ErrantX »

randallsquared wrote: post #31
ErrantX wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes maybe it would get more attention - but what kind of attention? Basically it would amount to the Swedish coaurts saying that providing the infrastructure ot share Copyrighted material was ok.. which it is not. In the face of that could we expect media companies to be reasonable and sit at the table to work out new ways to provide access to digital media/software? This is not a 2 sided battle in my eyes. TPB are a…

Let me preface by noting that I, too, am a software developer, and ran/was an ISV catering primarily to small business from 2001 to 2008. Nevertheless, I am anti-copyright. There are several arguments against copyright, but the one I like most is this: property is necessary because two people cannot both (exclusively) use the same property at the same time. The idea of property solves this, and everyone can agree tha…

I dont really follow that argument. Copyright doesnt cover ideas - purely creations (like music, software, artwork, films). Ideas do require patents etc.

If you have an idea you have to take steps to protect it. If you create a working product based on the idea that specific design is protected by a modicum of copyright.

I do see where you are coming from with the ideas thing (the free-software side of me wants me to agree fully that ideas/processes should never be protected).

(this is in the UK of course: in the US things might be different)

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#54

Post by kaens »

cabalamat wrote: post #48
mixmax wrote: post #6

Continually blogging about the courtcase, partying, inviting livebloggers and sending live feeds from the court is an excellent PR strategy for Thepiratebay. If they're found guilty there'll be an uproar, and the Swedish authorities and judges know they're being watched closely by an international community.

> the Swedish authorities and judges know they're being watched closely by an international community Do the Swedish authorities particularly care if a group of people who they consider to be criminals and pirates don't like them? I doubt it.

You'd think they would give a little more weight to the group, considering that the users of TPB are a good chunk of the internet-using population of the world.

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#55

Post by mixmax »

cabalamat wrote: post #48
mixmax wrote: post #6

Continually blogging about the courtcase, partying, inviting livebloggers and sending live feeds from the court is an excellent PR strategy for Thepiratebay. If they're found guilty there'll be an uproar, and the Swedish authorities and judges know they're being watched closely by an international community.

> the Swedish authorities and judges know they're being watched closely by an international community Do the Swedish authorities particularly care if a group of people who they consider to be criminals and pirates don't like them? I doubt it.

They are politicians, and politicians are at the mercy of their voters which happen to consist of a large chunk of filesharers.

When the Pirate Bay's servers were raided a few years ago it turned into a political scandal, and (if I remember correctly) a minister was fired.

Also, The Pirate Party was very close to getting elected into parlaiment at the last election in Sweden.

If I was a Swedish politician or authority I would definitely care.

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#56

Post by Andys »

SteveFoerster wrote: post #37
randallsquared wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by noting that I, too, am a software developer, and ran/was an ISV catering primarily to small business from 2001 to 2008. Nevertheless, I am anti-copyright. There are several arguments against copyright, but the one I like most is this: property is necessary because two people cannot both (exclusively) use the same property at the same time. The idea of property solves this, and everyone can agree tha…

I would go further than this. Censorship is when the state forbids speech. Copyright is a state entitlement of monopoly on specific speech wherein the state forbids it to all but that monopoly holder. Therefore, copyright is censorship. As for economics, I'd guess it's a loss. Copyright and patent are state subsidies for speech and technology. But while you generally do get more of something you subsidize, it's alway…

Well said! I wish there was a way to quantify that greater cost.

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#57

Post by thepanister »

dag wrote: post #13
ErrantX wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I knew since the '03 (I think 03) raid their servers are located in a different country anyway.

2008, Egypt ( http://thepiratebay.org/blog/102 , it only took a few seconds to find, and bests AFAIK-ing)

They are saying that: "actually hosted in Asia as well as Africa."!

If they hosted it in Sinai, then "actually" it stills in Asia, not Africa! Sinai is the only part in Egypt that belongs to Asia... I am from Egypt and I know it.

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#58

Post by randallsquared »

ErrantX wrote: post #53
randallsquared wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by noting that I, too, am a software developer, and ran/was an ISV catering primarily to small business from 2001 to 2008. Nevertheless, I am anti-copyright. There are several arguments against copyright, but the one I like most is this: property is necessary because two people cannot both (exclusively) use the same property at the same time. The idea of property solves this, and everyone can agree tha…

I dont really follow that argument. Copyright doesnt cover ideas - purely creations (like music, software, artwork, films). Ideas do require patents etc. If you have an idea you have to take steps to protect it. If you create a working product based on the idea that specific design is protected by a modicum of copyright. I do see where you are coming from with the ideas thing (the free-software side of me wants me to…

I think you either didn't notice the part of my explanation where I addressed categories, or wouldn't agree that categories are ideas. :)

If I create a product -- say, a book I write in longhand with pen on paper -- the product is covered by existing law without copyright. That physical book is mine to do with as I please, assuming I owned the raw materials in the first place. At this point, copyright isn't needed: I could contract with those I allow to read or copy this book. Where copyright comes in is in asserting a right to prevent copying over other physical books which are sufficiently similar to the one I just wrote. I'd be asserting a right to control an entire category of physical objects, rather than specific objects. I think the burden of proof is on those who want to extend property rights to categories of things, as an analogy with property rights in things. I used to use an example wherein I pointed to the absurdity of a car manufacturer asserting a right to all photos of their cars, but some car manufacturer actually did that without widespread derision recently.

About ideas/processes: if processes can't be protected, then what about a process which, followed strictly, produces a copyrighted work? Aren't copyright and patent isomorphic in this way?

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#59

Post by ErrantX »

randallsquared wrote: post #58
ErrantX wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont really follow that argument. Copyright doesnt cover ideas - purely creations (like music, software, artwork, films). Ideas do require patents etc. If you have an idea you have to take steps to protect it. If you create a working product based on the idea that specific design is protected by a modicum of copyright. I do see where you are coming from with the ideas thing (the free-software side of me wants me to…

I think you either didn't notice the part of my explanation where I addressed categories, or wouldn't agree that categories are ideas. :) If I create a product -- say, a book I write in longhand with pen on paper -- the product is covered by existing law without copyright. That physical book is mine to do with as I please, assuming I owned the raw materials in the first place. At this point, copyright isn't needed: I…

used to use an example wherein I pointed to the absurdity of a car manufacturer asserting a right to all photos of their cars, but some car manufacturer actually did that without widespread derision recently.

Yeh I am fairly certain in the UK that wuold not stand up. Certainly it doesnt fall under copyright.

What happens when you write a book and ask people for money to read it (unless we are arguing that everything should be free :)) and then someone else copies your book and sells it slightly cheaper than you. Should we not have protective laws to stop that occuring?

I think copyright is being confused here. With the similarity aspect we are talking intellectual property not copyright. Copyrightr (In the UK) applies simply to direct copies or derivative works (in your example if someone copied my book but added a new ending and a few new chapters).

If someone rewrites your entire plot without using any of your text they are fine (and the 2 works will stand and fall on their relative merits). But if you tried to write a book about Harry Potter the Wizard you would probably run into trobule - because the name has (I believe) been trade marked in that context (I could be wrong - but it is a dramatic example).

Re: The Pirate Bay Trial Day 10: Calls for Jail Time

#60

Post by ErrantX »

SteveFoerster wrote: post #37
randallsquared wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by noting that I, too, am a software developer, and ran/was an ISV catering primarily to small business from 2001 to 2008. Nevertheless, I am anti-copyright. There are several arguments against copyright, but the one I like most is this: property is necessary because two people cannot both (exclusively) use the same property at the same time. The idea of property solves this, and everyone can agree tha…

I would go further than this. Censorship is when the state forbids speech. Copyright is a state entitlement of monopoly on specific speech wherein the state forbids it to all but that monopoly holder. Therefore, copyright is censorship. As for economics, I'd guess it's a loss. Copyright and patent are state subsidies for speech and technology. But while you generally do get more of something you subsidize, it's alway…

I thought about this and I think I see where your failing to draw a line. Censorship is about stifiling someones rights - whereas copyright is a "casual enforcement" of someones right to keep control of their own works. It isnt really censorship because what right does anyone have to profit from a piece of work except the original creator?
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