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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#51

Post by tribaal »

phoronixrly wrote: post #20
zoobab wrote: post #6

eVoting cannot be understood and audited by normal citizens, not even by nerdy ones. It's just good for the trash.

The ballot voting process is also misunderstood by regular citizens, even nerdy ones. From experience, even by voting officials.

As a Swiss citizen I strongly disagree. Most people capable of reading and basic maths (addition!) can understand the counting of our paper ballots. My kids understand how this works since they are like 5.

Any citizen can go and check how votes are counted in their Geminde. Any citizen can check what is reported in the federal tally. I did several times. It's not rocket science.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#52

Post by [deleted] »

diego_moita wrote: post #17
palata wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I don't understand the push towards e-voting in countries like Switzerland. E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers. In-person voting or physical mail is much harder to hack from the other side of the world.

Can't talk about Switzerland, don't know the particularities. But in continental countries like Brazil it makes a lot of sense. It is cheaper, faster and safer. > E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers How do you "hack from the other side of the world" a computer that isn't even online? True, the transmission of computed results is made online, but keeping that safe i…

[deleted]

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#53

Post by Waterluvian »

soco wrote: post #35
Waterluvian wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of what you argue might make sense for American elections where you're voting for an absolutely ridiculous number of things. I'm not sure how it is in Switzerland, but in Canada I will vote for maybe three candidates in five years. And I don't mean three visits to the polls (though it's usually that), I mean three actual checkbox ticks for people to count. They're paper ballots and the counting is done…

In Switzerland I voted last week for 5 election lists and 6 different topics. This happens at least 4 times a year, but I don't call it "ridiculous number of things".

For the voter that may not be a ton of work. I imagine to count all those votes you need technology and not just the election workers at each station? Here we have kept it dead simple. They’re all just hand counted over a few hours.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#54

Post by brainwad »

palata wrote: post #11
diego_moita wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they did. But I think that the main reason is that Brazil's elections were a lot dirtier and a lot more unreliable than Switzerland's. What I mean is that the push towards e-voting is much stronger in countries with unreliable elections, because e-voting is harder to tamper than the crude ways you can defraud paper ballots. Switzerland's and other organized countries have elections that are "good enough", so the…

Actually I don't understand the push towards e-voting in countries like Switzerland. E-voting can be hacked from the other side of the world, because it happens on computers. In-person voting or physical mail is much harder to hack from the other side of the world.

Most of the push for e-voting in Switzerland is from the Swiss abroad (10% of the electorate), who have a right to vote, but whose exercise of that right is subject to the vagaries of the international postal system. I personally have had problems with receiving postal ballots from Australia to Switzerland with not enough time to return them; presumably Swiss voters in Australia have similar problems, let alone less-developed countries.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#55

Post by tribaal »

another-dave wrote: post #42
phoronixrly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular ballot voting can also be hacked and on a scale. Making ballots invalid while counting them, or modifying them in some form or other, intentionally writing wrong values in the counting protocols... And of course controlled vote or paid vote... E-voting can and has also led to exposing voting fraud -- see Venezuella.

but it's done in public where anyone observing the count can see that the people counting don't have any pencils etc in their hand

Exactly - it's done in public, and not centrally. Any citizen can go and check how it's done in their own Geminde.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#56

Post by orwin »

dolni wrote: post #49
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

> but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive Where in the US do you find it's difficult for people to get an ID? Where is it not? What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? What constitutes an ID being expensive? Nearly every country in the world requires proof of citizenship to vote. How…

The person I used to stay with when I used to visit WV don't have a proof of citizenship. He doesn't know where his birth certificate is (probably with the US army if they kept track of their nurses giving birth on ex-allied territory during a war), and get by with is SSN and driver license.

How it works in my country : my electoral card is freely sent to my address when I register to my voting office. I can vote with it, or with an official ID, as long as I'm in the correct place. The only moment I need my ID is to cast a vote on behalf of someone who identified me as a 'surrogate'.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#57

Post by zinekeller »

dolni wrote: post #49
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

> but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive Where in the US do you find it's difficult for people to get an ID? Where is it not? What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier? What constitutes an ID being expensive? Nearly every country in the world requires proof of citizenship to vote. How…

> What percentage of the population has an ID in a place where it's difficult to get one vs somewhere it is easier?

Not the OP, but except for passports (and passport cards)... there isn't really any federal-level ID in the US (and passport booklets/cards are expensive, just a bit over $100 IIRC).

The nearest equivalent in the state level are driver's licenses, which are also on the expensive side considering the ancillary costs (because it's a driver's license, not just an identification card). This is also the reason why US-centric companies like PayPal, for this exact reason, accepts a driver's license as proof of identification (obviously where not otherwise prohibited by local laws).

Some (New York for example) do have an ID (called a non-DL ID, that's how embedded driver's license is in the US), but most states do not have a per se ID.

> What constitutes an ID being expensive?

Developing countries, rather ironically, issue their IDs for free? Okay, indirectly paid by taxes, but there's no upfront cost. The above-mentioned identity documents have a clear cost attached to them.

> How is the rest of the world dealing with this problem? Do you think that their democratic processes might be compromised because of it?

Cannot talk about other countries (because there is an ID system and it's not a controversial affair to them), but instead I'll answer with a reflection of the US system.

Unfortunately, American ID politics are hard, mainly due to concerns of surveillance, but I think (only my opinion) because some of them want those historically disenfranchised (even if a fully native-born US citizen) de facto disenfranchised. This means that there is no uniform and freely-issued identification system in the US (or even a requirement to do that at the state level). Unfortunately, this... is a tough nut to crack, politically-speaking.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#58

Post by ericmay »

nomorewords wrote: post #21
phailhaus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?

Why have voter registration?

In the United States at least, voter registration will include your place of residence which will place you in a specific precinct. In other words: "I am so and so, and I live here. Votes that affect this area include me, and I get a say."

When voters are voting for things, for example a tax levy to fund a new school, or for who will be their state or federal congressional representatives, it's important that the voters in that school district or in that congressional district are the ones voting for their representatives or for the bills or initiatives that affect them. This isn't quite as important for national elections, gubernatorial races, or for the senate at the federal level, but it's obviously incredibly important the more local you get.

Without voter registration, that model breaks down. Even mundane things like how much staff and equipment should be at a polling location is not easy to figure out when you don't know how many voters you'll have. If you haven't worked as a poll worker it's really enlightening to learn about how the process works and a great way to meet your neighbors.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#59

Post by orwin »

xvector wrote: post #36
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

Even the poorest people have a state ID or drivers license. You cannot get most jobs without some legal ID.

In the US, a driver license isn't a proof of citizenship. Also, state IDs are not accepted by federal agencies, so it probably wouldn't work as proof of citizenship on federal elections.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#60

Post by appointment »

xvector wrote: post #36
stetrain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expen…

Even the poorest people have a state ID or drivers license. You cannot get most jobs without some legal ID.

In many states these are available without proof of citizenship. When people say proof of citizenship they usually mean a passport or REALID.
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