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A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

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Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, why would you review thousands of lines at a time? That means you didn't break the problem down appropriately. PRs should be around 100-200 lines of code, including tests. You build your tasks appropriately. Reviewing thousands of lines at a time is always a failure state.

PRs are as long as they need to be and as short as they need to be. This idea that any problem can be decomposed into 100-200 line changes is ridiculous. That's not realistic in many cases (esp. for refactoring work, etc.)

There are certainly exceptions. And if a problem cannot be decomposed, then you have a "stop the world" formal code review with a team-wide multi-hour dive into the code.

In my world, though, we use the refactoring tools such as feature flags and incremental improvements. We can use stacked pull requests. It requires training and discipline but it's absolutely doable for 99% of tasks.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#52
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New generations are always leapfrogging those that came before them, so I don't find it too hard to believe even under more pessimistic opinions of LLM usefulness. They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long. Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time.

> Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time. You can absolutely learn new paradigms at any age. This idea that you can only do so as an 18-25 year old is ridiculous.

it's a lot of work and some of us are tired

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#53
post #26

I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job" To me, someone who actually love programming, it makes vibe coding look like hell. > The workflow of vibe coding is the same as managing scrums or helping a student through a research thesis Which programmer wants that?! Just hearing the word "scrum" makes me want to run away and I know I am not…

I like coding. I've been doing it for a couple decades. I disagree with the "managing scrum" metaphor. Sure, you can use LLMs that way. And there is some truth to the fact that it may feel more like writing detailed Jira tickets than actually programming at times if you are trying to have it make huge changes... BUT coding with LLMs is really just a higher level abstraction. And the good news of that is LLMs are more deterministic than they seem, which is a lot of what people are fearful of losing by giving LLMs "the reins".

One nice thing about programming is that the computer is a dumb funnel for your human brain to encoded actions. If the program doesn't work, you did something wrong, missed a semicolon etc. This still applies to LLMs. If the LLM gave you shit output, it is your fault. You gave it shit input. If the model you used was the wrong one, you can still get good results, you just have to put in more work or break the problem down more first. But it's still programming. If you treat using LLMs that way, and start to apply your normal programming approaches to your prompts, you can find a workflow that satisfies your demands.

But even if you only use LLMs to rubber duck a problem, by literally typing "The program is doing X,Y,Z but it's only supposed to do Z. I already looked at A,B,C and I have a theory that G is causing the issue but I'm not seeing anything wrong there." and just paste that in the chat you might be surprised what it can turn up. And that's a fine use case!

LLMs are broadly useful and there are certainly elements of programming that are the "shit-shoveling" parts for you, from debugging to writing tests to planning or even re-writing Jira tickets, LLMs can help at different levels and in different ways. I think prescriptive calls to "code this way with LLMs" are shortsighted. If you are determined to write each line yourself, go for it. But like refusing to learn IDE shortcuts or use a new tool or language, you are simply cutting yourself off from technological progress for short term comfort.

The best part of programming to me is that it is always changing and growing and you are always learning. Forget the "AI eating the world" nonsense and treat LLMs as just another tool in your toolkit.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#54
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New generations are always leapfrogging those that came before them, so I don't find it too hard to believe even under more pessimistic opinions of LLM usefulness. They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long. Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time.

But automating isn't a programming paradigm. > They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long. I doubt that. For me this is the real dilemma with a generation of LLM-native developers. Does a worker in a fully automated watch factory become better at the craft of watchmaking with time?

But do those watches tell time better? or harder? or louder? Once you have the quartz crystal and have digital watches, mechanical movements became obsolete. Rolex and Patek Philippe are still around, but it's more of a curiosity than anything.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#55
This piece is excellent - it's full of ideas and tips that I have not seen in other similar tutorials. Worth spending some time with, especially if you are still skeptical of the value that can be unlocked by AI-assisted programming.

(A minor disagreement: it's using a definition of "vibe coding" that applies to any form of ai-assisted programming. I prefer to define vibe coding with its original definition from all the way back in February where it only refers to code that is generated through prompting without any review.)

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#56
post #26

I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job" To me, someone who actually love programming, it makes vibe coding look like hell. > The workflow of vibe coding is the same as managing scrums or helping a student through a research thesis Which programmer wants that?! Just hearing the word "scrum" makes me want to run away and I know I am not…

I think I enjoy programming. Vibe coding removes most of the parts that I like. It already looks like hell. I'm probably a minority, but I don't think I'm alone in this.

Do you enjoy the work you had to put in for every single PR? I'm not trying to make a "surely there's 1" annoying argument, but a "surely there's 5-10%".

For me, that's:

- working in legacy parts of the codebase

- anything that requires boilerplate that can't be code genned

- actually writing the code of unit tests (the fun part is making code testable, and coming up with what to test)

- fixing lint issues that can't be auto fixed yet

- removing old feature toggles

- building a temporary test harness

The list goes on. That's not hell. That's getting someone else on the team to do all the stuff you don't enjoy, without ruining someones day.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#57
I use LLMs, just like i use Google and other things but I don't vibe code as defined like the original meaning and I feel that all these people who are trying to tell me how good they are with it are yet to explain how on earth code is the most complex thing.

Coding is the easy part. Knowing what to code, how to work with people, how to interact with the real world and with chaos, with bad data, with poor integrations, and entropy.

I'm all for making AI and coding better and helping people do that and think.

I'm not impressed by anyone who doesn't show me they can think about the problems we face better and faster, and keep doing it without slowing down to a halt or making it someone's else's problem.

Everyone else is just talking themselves up or selling something, neither of which are useful to me.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#58
post #39

Trying to get better at vibe coding is like trying to get better at sleeping. The whole point is not to put effort into it.

Not a good analogy. You can put effort into getting better sleep. If the sunlight wakes you up too early, block out the windows. If your bed is uncomfortable, get a more comfortable bed. If the room is too hot, adjust the thermostat before you go to bed. A little bit of effort can go a long way towards getting better sleep. But you can't change the fundamental operation of an LLM, by its very nature it is not suitabl…

[deleted]

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#59
post #26

I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job" To me, someone who actually love programming, it makes vibe coding look like hell. > The workflow of vibe coding is the same as managing scrums or helping a student through a research thesis Which programmer wants that?! Just hearing the word "scrum" makes me want to run away and I know I am not…

> I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job" Given how “vibe coding” is all about explaining clearly the requirements and defining context, it’s for programmers who should have chosen middle management as a career. To actual programmers that enjoy the craft, using an LLM means ruining the beautiful art of abstraction and mental visualisa…

I've been middle management for half my career and the role has never been about explaining or requirements or defining context like I do with an LLM to code...

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#60
My recent vibe code experience made me realize it's almost exactly like being a tech lead managing offshore development. I learned early on that the key to leading successful offshore projects is precise, detailed specifications, and very rigorous code review and testing. Now I'm using the exact same discipline to "vibe" code. I really think there needs to be a different term for professional solution engineering using LLMs (like "prompt engineering" but for coding) to differentiate from casual prototyping or simple web UI hacking by non-devs that uses "vibe" coding.
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