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A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

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Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#21

Post by alfalfasprout »

Retr0id wrote: post #19
rafterydj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be rude, but what about understanding the "transcendental nature" of LLMs allows people to build more, faster, or with better maintainability than a "hardened industry titan"?

New generations are always leapfrogging those that came before them, so I don't find it too hard to believe even under more pessimistic opinions of LLM usefulness. They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long. Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time.

> Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time.

You can absolutely learn new paradigms at any age. This idea that you can only do so as an 18-25 year old is ridiculous.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#22

Post by leptons »

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #9
jandrese wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's going a bit too far. The big thing is to have the AI spit out small digestible modules, check those for correctness, and then glue them together. The same way a person normally writes code, you are just having the AI do the grunt work. This does have the caveat that reading code is usually harder than writing it, so the total time savings is far less than what AI companies claim. You only get in real d…

If you have to describe the code to the ai and then read through each line of it anyways, why not just write the code yourself?

It takes way more time to explain, and then re-explain, and then re-re-re-explain to the LLM what I want the code to do. No, it isn't because I don't understand LLMs, it's because LLMs don't understand, period. Trying to coax a fancy word predictor to output the correct code can be extremely frustrating especially when I know how to write the code.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#23

Post by iLoveOncall »

abletonlive wrote: post #8
iLoveOncall wrote: post #2

This illusion that senior engineers are too good to fall in all the traps laid by vibe coding really needs to stop. Just yesterday I was reading the comment of a Principal Engineer saying "of course vibe coding carries a huge risk for more junior engineers that don't understand when the LLM does something that looks right but is actually wrong", as if just because they have more experience THEY CAN. No, you can't eit…

You sound like a cynical junior engineer. As a tech lead I have to review thousands of lines of code from human engineers and let me tell you it’s no different than reviewing llm code

As a tech lead I have reviewed code written by junior engineers and written by AI, and there is a very clear difference between the two.

You also seem to be missing the point that if vibe coding lets your engineers write 10x the amount of code they previously could in the same working hours, you now have to review 10x that amount.

It's easy to see how there is an instant bottleneck here...

Or maybe you're saying that the same amount of code is written when vibe-coding than when writing by hand, and if that's the case then obviously there's absolutely no reason to vibe-code.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#24

Post by rafterydj »

ppqqrr wrote: post #20
rafterydj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be rude, but what about understanding the "transcendental nature" of LLMs allows people to build more, faster, or with better maintainability than a "hardened industry titan"?

we’ve been taught to think of programs as sculptures, shaped by the creator to a fixed purpose. with LLMs, the greatest advance isn’t in being able to make larger and more detailed sculptures more quickly; it’s that you can make the sculptures alive .

But who _wants_ a program to be alive? To be super clear, I love the tech behind LLMs and other transformers. But when discussing regular, run of the mill software projects that don't require AI capabilities - do you really need to have the understanding of the transcendental nature of LLMs to do that job well?

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#25

Post by lagrange77 »

Retr0id wrote: post #19
rafterydj wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be rude, but what about understanding the "transcendental nature" of LLMs allows people to build more, faster, or with better maintainability than a "hardened industry titan"?

New generations are always leapfrogging those that came before them, so I don't find it too hard to believe even under more pessimistic opinions of LLM usefulness. They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long. Learning new paradigms while your brain is still plastic is an advantage, and none of us can go back in time.

But automating isn't a programming paradigm.

> They are young and inexperienced today, but won't stay that way for long.

I doubt that. For me this is the real dilemma with a generation of LLM-native developers. Does a worker in a fully automated watch factory become better at the craft of watchmaking with time?

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#26

Post by GuB-42 »

I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job"

To me, someone who actually love programming, it makes vibe coding look like hell.

> The workflow of vibe coding is the same as managing scrums or helping a student through a research thesis

Which programmer wants that?! Just hearing the word "scrum" makes me want to run away and I know I am not alone here. Helping a student through a research thesis doesn't sound so bad, because as a human, helping people feels good. But here, there is no student, no human feelings, and you are not even helping the AI become better in the long term.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#27

Post by simonw »

mccoyb wrote: post #12

Try and use it for shit and play around with it — you’ll figure out where it sucks, where it is good by yourself. Play with it — that’s the only way anyone masters anything. Separate yourself from the results, be prepared to waste time, but try and have some fun and keep your eyes open.

Couldn't agree more. The only way to really get effective at using this stuff is to spend time with it, building up intuition about what it can and cannot do.

Playing with it is a great way to do that.

If there is something you are certain it won't be able to do, it's worth giving it a go anyway. Most of the time you will be right - and will still learn something new in confirming that and watching the way in which it fails. Very occasionally you'll be wrong and you will discover a new capability that surprises you.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#28

Post by simonw »

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #9
jandrese wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's going a bit too far. The big thing is to have the AI spit out small digestible modules, check those for correctness, and then glue them together. The same way a person normally writes code, you are just having the AI do the grunt work. This does have the caveat that reading code is usually harder than writing it, so the total time savings is far less than what AI companies claim. You only get in real d…

If you have to describe the code to the ai and then read through each line of it anyways, why not just write the code yourself?

Because it's significantly faster at both typing and looking up small details than you are.

Re: A guide to Gen AI / LLM vibecoding for expert programmers

#29

Post by uncircle »

GuB-42 wrote: post #26

I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job" To me, someone who actually love programming, it makes vibe coding look like hell. > The workflow of vibe coding is the same as managing scrums or helping a student through a research thesis Which programmer wants that?! Just hearing the word "scrum" makes me want to run away and I know I am not…

> I think the article could be more accurately titled "A Guide to Gen AI / LLM Vibecoding for Programmers who hate their job"

Given how “vibe coding” is all about explaining clearly the requirements and defining context, it’s for programmers who should have chosen middle management as a career.

To actual programmers that enjoy the craft, using an LLM means ruining the beautiful art of abstraction and mental visualisation of a complex piece of logic, by putting it through the very lossy process of explaining it into words. It would be a bit like a composer or a painter having to use words instead of leveraging their well-honed instinct.

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