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Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

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Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#51

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

lovich wrote: post #33
aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

> I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? It’s called government regulation. There’s whole fields of research on how to solve an arbitrarily complicated Prisoner’s Dilemma. A lot of people are allergic to the idea because they don’t want to have limits on their behavior, only on others or on no o…

Government regulation of shameful behaviour? That's worked out wonderfully in the past.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#52

Post by yalogin »

Shamelessness is the guiding mantra in politics too, I guess the author wanted to stay away from the most obvious and egregious example. I don’t think we will be able to turn the tide here though. The hustle culture of Silicon Valley tried to draw a fine line for a while but it was never going to last. As a society we are an attention economy and that only values shamelessness, not ethics and morals.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#53

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

apical_dendrite wrote: post #47
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

No, it's shamelessness. Shame exists to keep us from engaging in antisocial behavior. If your true self is a liar, a cheat, a cruel person, then you should absolutely be afraid to be your true self.

That's still authenticity though. What's not authentic is people who conceal those aspects of themselves, and it's also far more dangerous.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#54

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

dkarl wrote: post #49
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

It's a very specific form of authenticity. It's the authenticity of people who don't make an effort, who don't feel any need to try, who know that people are going to accept them and look up to them no matter how shitty they are. But for regular people it's a fantasy. Because it only works if you're rich.

That isn't true in my experience. Authenticity doesn't require wealth in order to land.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#55

Post by mmaunder »

SeanSullivan86 wrote: post #43
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Senior management doesn't like it, in my experience. But I agree it makes sense for many interactions.

The legal fiction that is the corporation is the antithesis of authenticity, and the brand they invest so heavily in, its mask. Having an authentic employee risks removing the mask.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#56

Post by lovich »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #51
lovich wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? It’s called government regulation. There’s whole fields of research on how to solve an arbitrarily complicated Prisoner’s Dilemma. A lot of people are allergic to the idea because they don’t want to have limits on their behavior, only on others or on no o…

Government regulation of shameful behaviour? That's worked out wonderfully in the past.

European governments have regulations for anti social behaviors that curb some excesses and they haven’t collapsed. So I would agree, they have worked in the past

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#57

Post by lovich »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #36
lovich wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? It’s called government regulation. There’s whole fields of research on how to solve an arbitrarily complicated Prisoner’s Dilemma. A lot of people are allergic to the idea because they don’t want to have limits on their behavior, only on others or on no o…

>A lot of people are allergic to the idea because they don’t want to have limits on their behavior, only on others or on no one at all. So are we doomed? if we don't vote in people who can properly regulate this, it seems the dilemma continues. But how does one convince an entire society to stop being so selfish and myopic?

If you want everyone to be able to do what they want without limit, and enough people are choosing a route to destruction, then yes we are doomed.

I have no idea how to convince anyone anymore. Even people who claim to care about things beyond themself immediately round up the wagons the second they have a limitation imposed. Already in this thread there’s someone mocking government regulation with a strawman argument. I’d just find some people you can make a community with and hole up.

The Curtis Yavins, Thiels, and Musks of the world appear to have willed their post democracy state into existence without how much anti democratic sentiment they pull. Gonna have to figure out what their “post constitutional” world is going to look like before anyone has any idea what a good oath forward will be

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#58

Post by mmaunder »

aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

A return to formality is the antidote, I’m afraid. As austere and priggish as it may seem. You may see brands and influencers emerging that gain traction with a kind of 1950s post WWII flavor of seriousness and formality. I’m not suggesting social conservatives. More the presentation and packaging of ideas and their purveyors. Formal instead of slovenly, polite vs obnoxious, eloquent vs simplistic, cultured vs vulgar, intellect vs spectacle.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#59

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

lovich wrote: post #56
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulation of shameful behaviour? That's worked out wonderfully in the past.

European governments have regulations for anti social behaviors that curb some excesses and they haven’t collapsed. So I would agree, they have worked in the past

Give us some examples.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#60

Post by PessimalDecimal »

mmaunder wrote: post #58
aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

A return to formality is the antidote, I’m afraid. As austere and priggish as it may seem. You may see brands and influencers emerging that gain traction with a kind of 1950s post WWII flavor of seriousness and formality. I’m not suggesting social conservatives. More the presentation and packaging of ideas and their purveyors. Formal instead of slovenly, polite vs obnoxious, eloquent vs simplistic, cultured vs vulgar…

The US isn't that society anymore. My brief trips to Japan and Switzerland suggests they may still be in some ways. But the US is fundamentally demotic and geared towards the lowest common denominator in nearly all aspects of life. Any attempt to reverse that will be a long and slow process, likely doomed to failure.
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