Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#51

Post by monjaro » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:51 PM UTC

cwdutch wrote: post #48

"For being at an elite "best-of-the-best" school, these students sure sound like a bunch of spoiled children", "They're not the people who ever build cool things anyway though, so who cares." - These and similar sentiments seem a bit common on HN and, to me, seem rather myopic and, frankly, immature. The latter statement is pretty clearly false and I don't plan on listing examples to demonstrate that. Going to a "bes…

Okay, I'm the one that said they sound like spoiled children, so I'll bite. Can you explain to me how that is myopic and immature? These are all quotes from the article:

"He said, 'I gave out 120 A’s last year, and I’ll give out 120 more,' "

"Having my degree revoked now would mean I lose my job."

"some said that they will sue the university if any serious punishment is meted out"

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other"

These aren't responses of mature adults. This is immature students whining and complaining because they got caught cheating. The test explicitly said "students may not discuss the exam with others." It doesn't matter how it was done last year, or how hard the class is, or how much money they spent on the class. If the exam says not to discuss it with other students and you do, you have cheated.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#52

Post by mathgladiator » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:51 PM UTC

EricBurnett wrote: post #24

badclient wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Substitute Seattle for Manhattan and the point stands.

I live in Seattle, and everyone jay-walks all the time. The hand which indicates stop is widely ignored.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#53

Post by tokenadult » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:57 PM UTC

The Harvard Crimson reporting on this story

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/8/30/academic-dishone...

plainly highlighted the relevant portion of the examination rules. If the Harvard students didn't understand what those rules meant, then the Harvard admission office must be admitting some students with some severe reading comprehension problems.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#54

Post by benblack86 » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 9:32 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #23

badclient wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

Everyone jaywalked when I was in Manhattan. It's a very pedestrian city.

I don't walk, I jaywalk!

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#55

Post by tomjen3 » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

patmcguire wrote: post #50

grandalf wrote: post #5

The worst part is that cheating indicates a strong cynicism about the course and the value of learning the material. I thought elite schools were able to recruit people with intellectual curiosity and character. Clearly the admissions formula is broken.

80% of kids at elite schools come through the same kind of feeder system of either good local public schools or private schools. In that system there's a series of successively narrower hoops you have to jump through - if there's only one junior high that teaches math beyond a certain point and not everyone can go there, those kids are going to be better prepared for the high school that teaches more advanced things,…

The Atlantic had a really interesting article about the kinds of kids who goes to an elite school (although it was Princeton) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-orga....

Fair disclaimer, the article is over a decade old.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#56

Post by 001sky » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

Jd wrote: post #31

kajecounterhack wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you but comments like these could be more verbose. It's not helpful to simply disagree without explanation. One word responses are just dogmatic.

Thanks. I personally believe in right and wrong, but also in degrees of right and wrong. Doing the right thing in a situation where everyone else is doing the wrong thing is more difficult. Doing the right thing when everyone is doing the right thing is easy. Thus, you don't really know your values or the depth of your values until you are placed in a situation where it is difficult to carry them out. Here, for "culp…

Your analysis is not wrong. The UCI/The Tour DeFrance, Lance Armstrong were just as bad. You highlight lots of good issues (including - other people making money off it regardless of who wins, the act of not doping was arguably dangerous, given the exertion levels of the pack, etc). The conclusion of this section is fine I'd also agree with (It is true). But ultimately you fail to provide a framework for analysis. You conclude This is to say that simply saying you have certain values means nothing

If you were a CEO of UCI and the Board asked you: 'How would you "fix" the pervasive problem' would your really come back debating "doping" and "problem"? Or would your come back with something more like: Here is my Answer X,Y,Z. While itsn't perfect, we've identified things that are clearly wrong that we can fix. First, we need to draw lines between doping and legitimate theraphy. Second, we need to have the science to fairly test between the Two. Third, while maintaining privacy and fairness, the athletes and the teams will need to co-operate with the [XYZ] league to make sure it doesn't damage the credibility of the competition and abuse our position of trust amongs the fans....etc.

I'd actually be interested to hear your views on that. Your analysis pointed out the analogy to the Armstrong case (was not something I thought of before hand, but it fits perfectly). But when I see a huge, intelligent analysis thrown up then ends the way yours does, it seems like a waste of all the energy that you put into writing it. (Unless you are a lawyer -- with a point to defend =D)

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#57

Post by tkahn6 » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 9:52 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

> They were just acting in the socially accepted manner.

Yes, I'm guessing that this sort of thing is very common at Harvard (and, to be fair, in all colleges). They reasoned that the risk of getting caught was low enough to justify the cheating.

And they got caught. They lost their bet. So now they should pay the price.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#58

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:16 PM UTC

trhtrsh wrote: post #40

oob205 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

This is a case of the changing times leading to miscommunication. The implied intent of the rule is that READ-ONLY NON-INTERACTIVE Internet use was permitted. To today's students, the Internet is a READ-WRITE INTERACTIVE tool, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

>The implied intent of the rule //

Can you quote the rule because in the article it appears that the intent of the rule was that above all you couldn't interact with other students [on the course] to complete the work but as long as you kept to that rule then general internet resources were fine to use?

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#59

Post by fleitz » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

Open book, open Internet and TA's that discuss exam questions sounds like the actions taken against the students are rather capricious.

It seems that the environment of the exam as well as the difficulty of the questions sugguest that the exam was designed to test collaborative abilities, rather than knowledge recital.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#60

Post by dschobel » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:56 PM UTC

zerostar07 wrote: post #49

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

Except that school is not real life. It's like a game or a sport where you train for real life. Is it right to unilaterally break the rules of a game?

Seems like an arbitrary distinction. Job, school, marriage, et al are all social constructs with certain principles and rules to try keep things operating smoothly and beneficially to all participants. You can break the rules in any of them to the detriment of your counter-parties. In this case, they cheapen the brand of a Harvard degree and potentially screw the non-cheaters if there's a grading curve.