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Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

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Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#51

Post by ptero »

Bengalilol wrote: post #34
ptero wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All people or most? If most, where is the threshold (0.1%, 1%, 10%?) for those whose values we can ignore and what should we do with those pesky people who do not share otherwise common values?

Do you know Switzerland and its democratic system? I am referring to those shared values that are enshrined in the Swiss Federal Constitution: Freedom, Human dignity, Equality, Democracy, Multilingualism and cultural diversity, Federalism, Solidarity. (that is not an exhaustive list).

Those are great words. The problems start when we try turning those into actionable definitions. That is, defining what kind of freedom citizens have and when the government starts putting pressure on those who step outside those definitions.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#52

Post by DaSHacka »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #45
diggan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try to honor our shared values and act accordingly What "shared values"? Most of the values people hold as "important" has people on the other side with the opposite values, and both of those are "correct". There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon.

> There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon. Murder is bad? Stealing is bad?

Think most murderers or thiefs would agree about those?

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#53

Post by viridian »

rubit_xxx20 wrote: post #27
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nowhere to go, since it's a constant game of whack-a-mole. Small island countries in the Caribbean can brag about super lax laws that aid privacy and evasion but none of them will ruin relationships with US or the EU just to protect a small 10 person privacy focused tech company when a warrants comes from abroad. For reference, Switzerland had to change their banking secrecy laws decades ago due to pressure f…

How about Sealand? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

Sealand is a fake country, a state without a nation. Even a nation without a military like Costa Rica can muster a defense via its people. Sealand on the other hand exists solely because no one cares to even acknowledge its existence. If Russia cut a deal to garrison troops there, that wikipedia page would see every "is" replaced with "was" before the day's end.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#54

Post by nickslaughter02 »

ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: post #46
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #20

Nym, Threema and Proton said they would leave Switzerland over this. The question is where to go. Certainly not to any EU country (ProtectEU, Chat Control). https://www.techradar.com/vpn/vpn-privacy-security/we-would-...

Mullvad (VPN) currently is in Sweden.

For now. ProtectEU would require service providers to log metadata and beyond or face criminal charges.

> For the first time, an EU expert group has explicitly mentioned VPN services as "key challenges" to the investigative work of law enforcement agencies, alongside encrypted devices, apps, and new communications operators.

"VPN services may soon become a new target of EU lawmakers after being deemed a "key challenge"" https://www.techradar.com/vpn/vpn-privacy-security/vpn-servi...

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#56

Post by StefanBatory »

api wrote: post #49
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

going through a shift toward authoritarianism of various flavors It is the current establishment that is pushing for these laws. Switzerland and EU have proven you don't need authoritarianism to constantly attack privacy and security of people.

I see two big brands of authoritarianism on the rise right now. One is populist strongman rule, usually but not always of a right wing bent. We have this rising in the US. The other is technocratic corporatism, the model of China and it seems a faction of the EU. Both endlessly malign democracy and liberalism as decadent, chaotic, and responsible for an endless parade of bogie men they will protect you against.

Depends, in Poland our conservatives are way more aligned with Republicans.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#57

Post by diggan »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #45
diggan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try to honor our shared values and act accordingly What "shared values"? Most of the values people hold as "important" has people on the other side with the opposite values, and both of those are "correct". There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon.

> There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon. Murder is bad? Stealing is bad?

> Murder is bad?

Sure, lots of countries agree with this. But bunch of countries still have "death penalty", even one that is usually heralded as the "Savior of the West" still has judicial murders.

Besides, if everyone agreed "murder is bad" we wouldn't have wars, so obviously not everyone agrees with that.

> Stealing is bad?

This I don't even agree with 100%, depends on the context. You're starving while someone else is hoarding food for themselves for no particular reason? Totally justifiable to steal food from them to survive.

War argument kind of fits with this one too, clearly not everyone agrees stealing is bad.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#58

Post by Bengalilol »

piva00 wrote: post #41
Bengalilol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. What I was trying to say is that simply being on the internet today — using AIs, corporate networks, and so on — almost certainly exposes your most personal and unique information (the kind of data that reveals your very identity) to the entities operating those systems. Sadly, I was implying that anonymity is becoming an obsolete concept. Then I tried to think of a law that could help the Swiss governm…

Got it, thanks for clarifying! I'm in complete agreement with you, I first got scared with the potential for profiling individuals through data collection over time some 15 years ago. I was working on a very small project from a startup, related to football/soccer, where we collected behavioural and sentiment data from football fans over time, in our service and around social media (mostly Twitter at the time), and h…

>> Right now it's mostly to serve me ads but the potential that absurd amount of information gathering has in the wrong hands truly terrify me.

Unfortunately, it was already used to influence voters with specific psychological settings. And it worked so well that it gave me chills on how fragile we are.

Anyways, I need to dig out the law proposal because it surely is more aimed at protecting citizens than ripping their souls for the "government" (which almost doesn't make sense for a country like Switzerland).

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#59

Post by [deleted] »

piva00 wrote: post #41
Bengalilol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. What I was trying to say is that simply being on the internet today — using AIs, corporate networks, and so on — almost certainly exposes your most personal and unique information (the kind of data that reveals your very identity) to the entities operating those systems. Sadly, I was implying that anonymity is becoming an obsolete concept. Then I tried to think of a law that could help the Swiss governm…

Got it, thanks for clarifying! I'm in complete agreement with you, I first got scared with the potential for profiling individuals through data collection over time some 15 years ago. I was working on a very small project from a startup, related to football/soccer, where we collected behavioural and sentiment data from football fans over time, in our service and around social media (mostly Twitter at the time), and h…

[deleted]

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#60

Post by AStonesThrow »

viridian wrote: post #53
rubit_xxx20 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Sealand? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

Sealand is a fake country, a state without a nation. Even a nation without a military like Costa Rica can muster a defense via its people. Sealand on the other hand exists solely because no one cares to even acknowledge its existence. If Russia cut a deal to garrison troops there, that wikipedia page would see every "is" replaced with "was" before the day's end.

> Sealand on the other hand exists solely because no one cares to even acknowledge its existence.

In the Infocom-produced Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the player must enter his/her own brain and navigate a maze, in search of the Common Sense Particle, finding where it is lodged in this brain, and get rid of the blasted thing.

Then the player may return to the Heart of Gold and, without hindrance of Common Sense, hold “No Tea” and “Tea” simultaneously in inventory.

But that is just a computer game!!!

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