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Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

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Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#21

Post by ptero »

nelsnelson wrote: post #13
diggan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try to honor our shared values and act accordingly What "shared values"? Most of the values people hold as "important" has people on the other side with the opposite values, and both of those are "correct". There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon.

Seems like a not difficult and quite worthwhile exercise to come up with at least one or two values that are so basic and fundamental that everyone could share them. Maybe that's what OP is talking about. Why be obtuse about shared values?

Because historically it has never been done. The closest we got is when a group (religious or political) finds something most people somewhat agree with, declares it a universal value and proceeds to suppress, drive away or eliminate those evil people who do not share it.

It is much better to define acceptable boundaries on actions and let people believe what they want if their actions do not violate those agreed on boundaries.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#22

Post by spwa4 »

nonelog wrote: post #15
chvid wrote: post #8

It is a fairly common attitude amongst hosting companies. And understable from a business perspective. If you are one of the few hosting companies that host truly anonymous VPN and email providers, you are going get some troublesome customers that likely are going to end up being expensive.

> understable from a business perspective. Everything can be justified as a business interest. Even criminal behavior could. So that argument is NOT acceptable. This is about a Swiss company, not Russia. If Switzerland wants to go there, let's at least be honest about it.

Well, to be fair, they are pretty honest about it. Everything about the policy is public, and nothing will happen until it is approved.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#23

Post by FirmwareBurner »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #20

Nym, Threema and Proton said they would leave Switzerland over this. The question is where to go. Certainly not to any EU country (ProtectEU, Chat Control). https://www.techradar.com/vpn/vpn-privacy-security/we-would-...

There's nowhere to go, since it's a constant game of whack-a-mole. Small island countries in the Caribbean can brag about super lax laws that aid privacy and evasion but none of them will ruin relationships with US or the EU just to protect a small 10 person privacy focused tech company when a warrants comes from abroad.

For reference, Switzerland had to change their banking secrecy laws decades ago due to pressure from the US, Germany and France, so you can guess how well other weaker countries will fare against such pressure. And let's not forget the famous Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland, so I'm not buying the famous "Swiss privacy" marketing fluff at all anymore as much as I like the country. Just like Crypto AG, every tech company is, or will be, infiltrated by alphabet agencies by cooperation or by force. If you want real privacy you have to self host, that's the only way.

Plus, I feel like we're focusing at the wrong issue here. Do we really want lawless places on this planet to exist where companies and individuals can escape the courts and law enforcement of their own nations? Something that will be exploited mostly for nefarious purposes than protecting privacy of law abiding people.

The real solution is holding powerful governments accountable against invasions of privacy by their voters, not creating lawless zones where companies and powerful individuals can go and hide to avoid laws they dislike. If laws are bad, just change the laws, don't normalize law avoidance. If you normalize law avoidance about one thing, why not about other things as well like theft, taxation, human trafficking etc? The whole point of developed western nations is democratic representation, the strong rule of law and fairness of the court system. Write to your representative.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#24

Post by Bengalilol »

piva00 wrote: post #16
Bengalilol wrote: post #6

As sad as it undoubtedly sounds (and as if we're already saying goodbye to the utopia), I think this choice might be wiser than we initially thought. Consider the implications of AI knowing everything about you, even down to your biometric behavior. Think about the threat of disinformation campaigns targeting democracies. I know my stance may seem weak in terms of ideals, and I feel a bitter regret toward my former s…

> Consider the implications of AI knowing everything about you, even down to your biometric behavior. Think about the threat of disinformation campaigns targeting democracies. I know my stance may seem weak in terms of ideals, and I feel a bitter regret toward my former self. But shouldn’t we, as humans, try to honor our shared values and act accordingly? I don't understand this train of thought, what exactly are you…

You're right.

What I was trying to say is that simply being on the internet today — using AIs, corporate networks, and so on — almost certainly exposes your most personal and unique information (the kind of data that reveals your very identity) to the entities operating those systems.

Sadly, I was implying that anonymity is becoming an obsolete concept. Then I tried to think of a law that could help the Swiss government track down malicious individuals, and I wondered whether that could actually serve as something beneficial — a way to protect people and their freedom.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#25

Post by ptero »

Bengalilol wrote: post #11
diggan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try to honor our shared values and act accordingly What "shared values"? Most of the values people hold as "important" has people on the other side with the opposite values, and both of those are "correct". There are no "shared values" that all humans agreed upon.

Sharing is not agreeing. I can share values with someone I don't agree with. Switzerland has shared values for instance, it is a country build upon that principle. I bet every society has some. Humans too.

All people or most? If most, where is the threshold (0.1%, 1%, 10%?) for those whose values we can ignore and what should we do with those pesky people who do not share otherwise common values?

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#26

Post by mgw »

nonelog wrote: post #7

Where should I move my domain portfolio? What are the best competitors?

A combination of good pricing, sane behavior and an offering with many TLDs right now is https://www.netim.com, based in France. Their UI is quite outdated, but it works ok. I've switched here after leaving Gandi.

If you're fine with a US-based provider, https://porkbun.com/ also has good pricing and a tech oriented mindset. They don't support many ccTLDs though.

In general, https://tld-list.com/ is the best place to research domain registrars in my opinion.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#27

Post by rubit_xxx20 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #23
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #20

Nym, Threema and Proton said they would leave Switzerland over this. The question is where to go. Certainly not to any EU country (ProtectEU, Chat Control). https://www.techradar.com/vpn/vpn-privacy-security/we-would-...

There's nowhere to go, since it's a constant game of whack-a-mole. Small island countries in the Caribbean can brag about super lax laws that aid privacy and evasion but none of them will ruin relationships with US or the EU just to protect a small 10 person privacy focused tech company when a warrants comes from abroad. For reference, Switzerland had to change their banking secrecy laws decades ago due to pressure f…

How about Sealand?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#28

Post by Bengalilol »

ptero wrote: post #21
nelsnelson wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a not difficult and quite worthwhile exercise to come up with at least one or two values that are so basic and fundamental that everyone could share them. Maybe that's what OP is talking about. Why be obtuse about shared values?

Because historically it has never been done. The closest we got is when a group (religious or political) finds something most people somewhat agree with, declares it a universal value and proceeds to suppress, drive away or eliminate those evil people who do not share it. It is much better to define acceptable boundaries on actions and let people believe what they want if their actions do not violate those agreed on…

Switzerland is the oldest democracy in the world. Your comment certainly doesn't fit the way this country handles its citizens. There is the Law, the "what is tolerated" and what isn't. That's the "boundaries on actions". But any malicious mind won't bow down to those intentional principles.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#29

Post by nick__m »

rubit_xxx19 wrote: post #12

You could work within their parameters but continually communicate an enormous amount of garbage that is not illegal but would be flagged, it would be an interesting experiment, and then they could decide whether or not they’d wish to continue. Personally, I think that privacy is a losing game, like gambling. The best case is that we all work within the parameters. But in any case, the amount of time and effort that…

  unless society as a whole embraces that we’re all unhealthy and we’re all flawed, but at that point perhaps things become too flexible and very bad things happen.
What bad things do you see happening? I see that as a good thing, we are all flawed, to me, society internalized that fact seems to be an opportunity to make it a better more compassionate one but alas I don't see that happening in the near future.

Re: Infomaniak comes out in support of controversial Swiss encryption law

#30

Post by priced_in »

Talking about dogging a bullet...

I wanted to take back control over my emails so recently I started to look long and hard at ProtonMail, Infomaniak (kMail), Mailbox.org, and others. In the end, I chose mailbox.org. I could have been really annoyed right now given how painful updating accounts/credentials and account migration are!

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