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NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

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Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#51
post #42

This isn't about science, issues, or voting. The message is: "We don't like you and it would be better if you weren't around". Also, why is NSF fielding 40,000 proposals per year? That is 110 proposals per day. Is there really that much science to perform and not enough universities to host it? Not at all. It exists because every state and local government and educational institution is incentivized to solicit federa…

> Is there really that much science to perform

yes

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#52
post #31
post #11

The NSF funded my graduate research. It feels like someone is going through my past and burning all of the ladders that helped me grow and succeed.

[flagged]

> You are implying a few things here; that it is the responsibility of others to fund your success and that there were not, or will not be, alternative means of such funding.

Yes, the government funds research, the benefit of which accrues to all of society. There is no credible alternative to government funding for public research; the scales are not the same. Private funding of basic research (internal R&D budgets) accrues benefits to the funders directly.

Knock-on effects to cutting the government funding include a decimation of future research leadership by the US by making it unattractive to study and do basic research here. Other countries are taking advantage of this (like any private sector company would if one of its competitors makes such a drastic mistake).

> Lastly you are implying that your graduate research was something that advanced some combination of science, humanity, the country...or maybe that the current work you do is of such value that the government should have paid your way to your current status.

You're overly indexing on the benefits any specific researcher gets from research funding. Research is currently done by humans; if we want more research done, then the people doing that research will necessarily get some of the benefits.

Also, since you're commenting on a software-focused web forum -- you should be aware that the compensation for government-funded researchers is a fraction of what these folks could make in the private sector. Framing it as some greedy theft of resources from the public is foolish and disingenuous to readers who don't know about how science funding works in the US.

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#54

The NSF budget is ~$10billion. That's about half of NASA's, 1.2% of the DoD's, 0.5% of the discretionary budget ($1.7 trillion). Why is this the focus of the admin? Science is one of the few things the US is doing well.

Less public funding -> less competition for private sector R&D, e.g. big pharma

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#55
post #41
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but OP did not imply any of the things you mentioned at all.

Correct that OP did not imply those things, but a lot of people will read it that way. There are implications behind the implications, and I think that DiffEq is referencing the latter. I'm not taking a side in this fight.

So you're saying that if we ignore what he wrote, close our eyes, and make stuff up, then we can pretend his post says whatever we want? Sounds like you should work for US government.

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#56

[flagged]

As someone inside the United States... I sort of agree with you, though not entirely. Where we are today is the culmination of decades of attacks on our institutions and public discourse. This is not majority will, but it is a failure of the majority to curb the attacks on our institutions. Collectively, we're to blame -- but at the same time, is it hard to understand why the majority of people in the U.S. haven't been able to push back given what people are up against?

The wealthiest folks have the resources to continually and almost casually undermine institutions, while it takes enormous effort for the larger public to push back. Most people are just trying to live their lives while the Murdochs, Kochs, and others can keep throwing money and bodies at corrupting the country. For every win against the anti-Democratic corruptions, there's two or five losses. They pile up.

But the fall of the U.S. has seemed inevitable for decades. As someone who is here and isn't likely to leave -- my family is here, too many people to muster out and I won't leave them behind -- this is going to suck pretty horribly for some time. If we're very lucky, this will be the wakeup call the U.S. needs and when the dust clears we may rebuild something better. If we're not... well, I don't want to dwell on that.

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#57
Hmm the budget is supposed to be approved by congress is it not? Trump can certainly tell people what he thinks the funding should be, but until a budget is voted through it is not final?

Or does this agency fall under the White House direct financing of some sort?

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#58

The NSF budget is ~$10billion. That's about half of NASA's, 1.2% of the DoD's, 0.5% of the discretionary budget ($1.7 trillion). Why is this the focus of the admin? Science is one of the few things the US is doing well.

Less public funding -> less competition for private sector R&D, e.g. big pharma

The research that NSF funds is not in competition to private companies, it's mostly basic research. To the contrary, it's part of an important pipeline for training young scientists. And many of those later will work e.g. in pharma companies.

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#59
post #52
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> You are implying a few things here; that it is the responsibility of others to fund your success and that there were not, or will not be, alternative means of such funding. Yes, the government funds research, the benefit of which accrues to all of society. There is no credible alternative to government funding for public research; the scales are not the same. Private funding of basic research (internal R&D budgets)…

Well said, thank you.

Re: NSF faces shake-up as officials abolish its 37 divisions

#60
post #30

"In the new structure, even if a revised proposal gets the green light from a division director, a new body whose membership has not been determined will take a fresh look to ensure it conforms to the agency’s new standard for making awards." I wonder if doge is using ML systems to do this kind of review in a far more centralized way across all of government. With the kind of data they have -- obtained by extra-legal…

Sounds like a bribe machine / patronage machine, you gotta grease the wheels across a whole range of people. And the odds they have some actual expertise? I'm not holding my breath, there's no indication that domain knowledge or such is relevant to Trump team members jobs... quite the opposite.

A whole bunch of us clearly didn't pay attention during history class when they covered the US government in the back half of the 19th century.

(Really, I could have stopped that sentence after "history class", or maybe even after "attention")

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