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Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

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Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Technical innovation comes from depth in a subject area, and you actually have to study something before you can innovate in the context of it." I think you are making three assumptions that can be disputed: 1. The only place to gain a depth of knowledge is a traditional university; and 2. The best time to gain this depth of knowledge is between the ages of 18 and 22; and 3. You need to innovate to have a successful…

I would argue that the problematic conflation exists in the original program, insofar as the 20 under 20 program is often described as a potential replacement for higher ed. As far as I see things, there are a whole bunch of extra factors which are much more extensive than your three categories and which require a much more rigorous analysis. For example, how do we foster innovation in specific subjects? For instance…

> It is, nonetheless, billed as a solution for all sorts of problems for which it is not

I have never had that impression from Thiel himself, though others have certainly spun it that way. He seems very much in favour of traditional formal education, unless your life goals are to have a career; in which case he promotes focusing on that instead.

The problem, as you describe, is that many people enter college for four years of their life and come out having gained nothing. Four years of being in the working world would have put them in the same standing, plus they'd have valuable experience to propel them into better jobs. They aren't there for the positive reasons to be in college, they are there because they don't know anything else and that is unfortunate.

There really is no one solution for everyone, and Thiel seems to be promoting that by showing there are other options. The only effective way to do push that on the masses is to attack the idea that college is the "one true way."

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#52
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "Pos" side should be discounted as it is obviously Thiel centered PR from an employee. I think the "Neg" side should be the default, since one should not presume value until value is demonstrated. That we are still in a sense "early stage" indicates that we don't have a full picture yet and so shouldn't presume that we do. I have mixed feelings about the program in general. Entrepreneurship programs maybe…

I am not an employee of Thiel. -- Danielle Fong.

In that case, what do you mean by "the inside" ? Presumably you have some sort of privileged access to information, including that which is currently under NDA. If you aren't receiving funding from the organization, what exactly is your relationship?

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#53
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect, a bunch of students with failed/successful experience is better than a bunch of students who go to college, because they were "suppose" to. I think its best to opt for more freedom, when it comes to picking who they want to spend their adulthood. These new paths aren't for everyone but that's why we should consider this an alternate solution, not a one size fits all one.

>Incorrect, a bunch of students with failed/successful experience is better than a bunch of students who go to college, because they were "suppose" to. Not all college students attended college because they are "supposed to". Even for those who attend college because they are "supposed to", it is arguable that they will end up being better than choosing not to go to college. If someone has no idea what he wants to do…

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, and Steve Jobs all attended college. They just didn't finish. Yet, I think they all derived some value from the time they spent in college.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#54
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "Pos" side should be discounted as it is obviously Thiel centered PR from an employee. I think the "Neg" side should be the default, since one should not presume value until value is demonstrated. That we are still in a sense "early stage" indicates that we don't have a full picture yet and so shouldn't presume that we do. I have mixed feelings about the program in general. Entrepreneurship programs maybe…

I am not an employee of Thiel. -- Danielle Fong.

I'm a mentor; officially for two fellows, informally for another 6. Atop this, they move in my circles. It's a pro-bono relationship -- I'm working with them because I'm excited about them and what they're doing.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since one should not presume value until value is demonstrated. That we are still in a sense "early stage" indicates that we don't have a full picture yet and so shouldn't presume that we do. Couldn't agree more. Until evidence is confirmed by multiple neutral third parties the negative (random) hypothesis holds precedence until such a time as evidence falsifies it. No presumption - merely rational scepticism there…

Agreed. I think Thiel was probably creating a program with a knowledge of the PR the initiative would generate without much thought to long-term outcomes. Obv. he is a smart guy with plugins to higher-ed, and clearly someone who believes in the positive possibilities of innovation. In that sense, he is someone I would like to collaborate with. That said, he may have shot himself in a foot here in picking people who w…

If there's a macro distinction on can make about Thiel's strategy versus others, it's a strong focus on the long term.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Technical innovation comes from depth in a subject area, and you actually have to study something before you can innovate in the context of it." I think you are making three assumptions that can be disputed: 1. The only place to gain a depth of knowledge is a traditional university; and 2. The best time to gain this depth of knowledge is between the ages of 18 and 22; and 3. You need to innovate to have a successful…

I would argue that the problematic conflation exists in the original program, insofar as the 20 under 20 program is often described as a potential replacement for higher ed. As far as I see things, there are a whole bunch of extra factors which are much more extensive than your three categories and which require a much more rigorous analysis. For example, how do we foster innovation in specific subjects? For instance…

I'm not dismissing your thorough reply, but HN can only support a certain depth of discussion.

I think we agree more than disagree here. I strongly agree with the idea that college should be seen as a set of tools and not the default choice. I think we can also both agree that alternatives need to be developed, otherwise college will remain a default.

I guess our disagreement is over the claims versus effectiveness of Thiel's alternative in particular.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#57
post #33

I met one the Thiel fellows. His employ? He gives talks about skipping college. It was inane; I don't think I've ever met a more transparent circular argument. I've also met people who dropped out or never went to school, and did amazing stuff during that time. Nobody paid them to do it, though. The problem with children is that they haven't been around the block. Giving them money just for being young and eager only…

Not to mention, college is one of the easiest ways for a person to meet other smart people. Not everyone can afford to be in the Bay Area. A smart student can get a full-tuition (and often more!) scholarship at a solid state university with a little bit of effort.

Join a few interesting clubs, hang around the dining halls, and pretty soon you can find other hackers, or even just awesome people to talk to.

If we're truly going to be investing in teams rather than just investing in ideas, I would place at least some additional value to people who met and worked together in college. It's an experience that's hard to replicate in most places in the US, and seems to allow for strong teams to pop up.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#58

I thought these wunderkinds were supposed to change the world. :) No one argues that these are bright people, the problem is I think this "fellowship" was a lot of hype to promote an idea that ... I don't know, where's the fruit? Sure, there are autodidacts, but as I always say, they are outliers. I do find the education focused ones interesting, in "oh boy" sort of way. We're just taking something as dogma (anti-col…

Good autodidacts learn from the best, and the best are always academics.

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#59
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole endeavor is lousy. With regards to 'success', for most people the education you get in college is secondary. What's of primary importance is networking and having that degree on your resume to get you in the door. [1] But networking and having something on your resume that gets you in the door is provided automatically (and arguably in more effective doses) by rubbing elbows with Thiel and likeminded millio…

To be fair, it is not exactly clear if college scales either. Around 25% of the working population have a college degree and about 50% have post-secondary training of some kind. Only 5% of the working population earn more than $90,000 per year and the top 25% start earning at only $45,000 per year or so. It's a livable income in many places, but that is not what we generally consider successful in business.

According to [1], 93% of small business owners earn roughly less than $200,000. and 74% earn less than 100K.

Business owners are 10% of the working population, so only 2.6% percent of the working population earn more than $100,000 by owning a business.

And considering the fact that many wealthy business owners do have a degree(lawyers, dentists, etc.), college seems the more scalable way to wealth.

And even if you consider high end of earners , many of the high earners(ceo's, tech entrepreneurs, medical and legal professionals) do have a college degree.

[1]www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42043.pdf pg-8

Re: Peter Thiel's College Dropouts: How's That Working Out?

#60
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it is not exactly clear if college scales either. Around 25% of the working population have a college degree and about 50% have post-secondary training of some kind. Only 5% of the working population earn more than $90,000 per year and the top 25% start earning at only $45,000 per year or so. It's a livable income in many places, but that is not what we generally consider successful in business.

According to [1], 93% of small business owners earn roughly less than $200,000. and 74% earn less than 100K. Business owners are 10% of the working population, so only 2.6% percent of the working population earn more than $100,000 by owning a business. And considering the fact that many wealthy business owners do have a degree(lawyers, dentists, etc.), college seems the more scalable way to wealth. And even if you co…

Business owners, like the general working population, are a mixed pool of those with degrees and those without. Given how many business owners earn less than $100K, including those with degrees, it further highlights my point that having a degree doesn't really give an advantage to finding financial success.

> (lawyers, dentists, etc.), college seems the more scalable way to wealth.

Less than 1% of the population have professional degrees. Those with them may have an advantage due to the artificial supply limits created through legislation, but the fact their numbers are so low demonstrates again that it really doesn't scale.

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