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How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

economist.com

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Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#51

Post by Retric »

s5300 wrote: post #15
Retric wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, for most countries this kind of intelligence gathering is really expensive with low ROI and so not worth it. (Edit: word order for clarity.) The typical country is closer to Cambodia or Honduras not a world power. China can leverage it, but most countries aren’t China.

>> with low ROI and so not worth it for most countries. I think by the very nature of what’s going on you’re demonstratedly wrong on this point.

Intelligence is only worth what you can leverage it for. Knowing a stock is going up tomorrow by 5% isn’t worth much for most people, but it’s worth a far more to someone who can toss 100m into it.

America has a vast economy, huge military R&D spending, massive foreign entanglements etc, and it’s arguable if the CIA is worth its budget. I’m not arguing it should be defunded, but there’s been significant debate even within the intelligence community around the topic for a bunch of different reasons.

Scale that down to a developing country with 10 million people and human intelligence gathering within foreign countries is almost guaranteed to be a waste of time and money.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#55

Post by wruza »

NemoNobody wrote: post #29
wruza wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it work in US, you just look at the guy and then he sends you his IBAN? Aren’t companies required to establish an employee’s origin by bureaucratic means? IDs, SSNs, notarized copies, work permit, etc? Why are North Korean guys even a problem, it feels like they shouldn’t be able to fake identification numbers and permits, unless something is fundamentally wrong with the country’s accounting.

Experian was hacked and 168 million Americans had all of lives information stolen - the data that is supposed to verify who I am and tracks all of my financial life, everywhere I've ever lived and of course my social security number. Not one thing to fix this was done. Anyone could buy my information and be me, NOTHING was done to fix this insanely huge problem.

But they can’t fake notarization, can they? What I’m getting from your comment is that they can send a screenshot of your id and that’s enough. If so, it is indeed a problem on the employers/legislation side. Expecting your numbers to not leak was a bad plan from the beginning. You should be able to publish these without any serious consequences for anyone involved (apart from deanonymization-related issues basically).

I’m also heavily “leaked”, but nobody can do anything with my numbers without actual counterfeiting. I could share my ids here if not for pseudonymity. The fact that your identity can be legally hired into a company without your proven id hard copies, that’s the root of the problem, imo.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#56

Post by casenmgreen »

coliveira wrote: post #32
casenmgreen wrote: post #20

[flagged]

> China has been engaged in a massive military build-up for many years now - and there is on the face of it no reason for that at all, because China is threatened by precisely no-one. Do you realize the US is in the same position? The US has no credible threats to its territory anywhere. However it has the most massive military in the world and it is spread to every single continent. I would suggest that's exactly th…

It's logistically impossible for the USA to invade China.

The USA spends a few percent on its military, something more than say the EU, but the reason the military is so large is because the economy is so large. When we say the USA has the largest army, we're really saying the USA has the largest economy.

The Chinese economy is now comparable to the US economy, by dint of their being about three times as many people, but we're looking now at a massive military build up along with intensely threatening behaviour toward Taiwan. Do we forget the repeated massive military exercises to chastise "separative elemnts" in Taiwan, every time a senior US politician visits? do we forget the events in Hong Kong? the ongoing suppression of Tiananmen Square? and of the Uyghurs?

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#57

Post by Trasmatta »

memonkey wrote: post #46
Trasmatta wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a total non sequitur. It's implying that you can't criticize ANY corrupt government without first criticizing all of them.

you think it's a total non sequitur but im just asking what i think is a simple question: whether that logic is applied fairly and accurately within the context of being a world superpower. otherwise you just end up potentially looking like a hardline racist parrot to some readers.

Do I also need to include disclaimers about Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc, being bad anytime I criticize China as well? Or are they exempt for some reason? Are you following your own advice, to criticize fairly and accurately across the board?

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#58

Post by casenmgreen »

popcalc wrote: post #31
casenmgreen wrote: post #20

[flagged]

In the past 40 years how many countries has the US invaded and how many has China?

China historically has been ruled by committee and has been inward-looking.

China is now a dictatorship.

Dictatorships sooner or later, if they think they can get away with it, invade their neighbours.

When you see a dictatorship which is under no threat engaging in a massive military build-up, invasion is on the way.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#60

Post by vacuity »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #49
memonkey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, do you apply this same logic to US government and history? What kind of evils get prescribed to the so called democratic land of the free?

I don't apply the same logic to any country's history. It wouldn't make sense to hold modern China accountable for the Qing, or the civil war, or the Cultural Revolution. Like the original commenter, my biggest concern by far with the Chinese government is their repeated public statements that they plan to violently conquer a neighboring country and integrate it into their own. The US has undertaken a lot of military…

I agree that China should be regarded as a particularly problematic country, but I would like the US to have a more comprehensive and introspective attitude. The US can stop the mutual bullying and take the high ground. That doesn't change the facts about China, but shifts in foreign policy and/or PR can at least give the US a better grounds as the primary opposing actor to China, if not incentivize China to change too.
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