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Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#51

Post by retinaros »

ath3nd wrote: post #12
pikseladam wrote: post #4

Is there any website owner with a million users who can't be held accountable for the same crimes? According to the logic in France, since criminals use Windows, the CEO of Microsoft could also be blamed.

> According to the logic in France, since criminals use Windows, the CEO of Microsoft could also be blamed. That's a very bad take. The charges are because of Telegram repeatedly refusing or being too slow to take down illegal content (illegal in France, that is): child pornography, drugs ads, etc. Meta and X both remove illegal content when a notice from authorities is made, unlike Telegram which drags its feet. If…

twitter should def be charged with the same. why when elon musk seized it he could bring down pedopornography by double digit percentage in a few weeks? why wasnt it addressed before? META also recently revealed that they indeed worked for the DNC to supress opinions shouldnt we trial zuck?

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#52

Post by mrtksn »

sschueller wrote: post #19

If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? This is a very slippery slope. I don't see a problem with requiring a company to cooperate with a court order to release data. However if a company does not have this data (because it's encrypted) it should not be liable or be required to collect such data.

CEO's of ISP's who reject providing the information to the courts and the law enforcement will certainly go to jail.

That's why we don't have network operators for criminals. We have seen the demand for it in the crypto(as in cryptocurrency) space and many went to prison for running networks and tools for criminals, especially people running cryptocurrency tumblers were caught, prosecuted and imprisoned.

I don't believe in a CEO that takes on the law enforcement for higher morals or even money, that's mafia's line of work. In some cases maybe its possible to have high moral outlaws but they will have to shoot at the police when they are coming to make an arrest.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#53

Post by jajko »

kelnos wrote: post #16
stanislavb wrote: post #10

Some interesting facts: - Durov is, according to him, living in exile outside of Russia since 2014 - due to Russian gov persecution. - Since his "exile" - he has travelled 50-60 times to Russia https://www.reddit.com/r/Telegram/comments/1f2pgg3/pavel_dur... - Most Russian billionaires that live in exile and are persecuted by the RU gov fall from windows (or something tall) quite often. Durov has been living lavishly…

> Since his "exile" - he has travelled 50-60 times to Russia That "fact" is disputed. The source of that information appears to have relied on unverified information, among other issues. I do find it odd that Russia is working so hard to get him out of France, though.

Its almost like some PR gestures are irrelevant when actual SHTF, and then you see intents and corresponding actions in clear.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#54

Post by an_guy »

thefz wrote: post #45
sschueller wrote: post #19

If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? This is a very slippery slope. I don't see a problem with requiring a company to cooperate with a court order to release data. However if a company does not have this data (because it's encrypted) it should not be liable or be required to collect such data.

> If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? > This is a very slippery slope. I wonder what is hard to understand. Is there CP/violent content in Instagram? Nope. In Facebook? Nope. In YouTube? nope. Why? These companies are held responsible for the public content, published in clear, on their platf…

> Is there CP/violent content in Instagram? Nope. In Facebook? Nope. In YouTube? nope.

Yes. Infact you can find public groups, pages and channels posting all kind of illegal stuff (drugs, weapons, fraud, dox..)

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#55

Post by emptysongglass »

NiekvdMaas wrote: post #35
janmo wrote: post #15

It is even possible that Durov has saved lives by not communicating user information to the french intelligence services. Recently have been a bunch of scandals where french intelligence officers where involved in murder plots. - There is "Haurus", a french intelligence officer who sold personal information on the darknet, in one case he sold personal information including the address of a drug dealer. Something that…

To make things even stranger, Durov was apparently invited to lunch by Macron. Instead of a presidential welcome, he was arrested on arrival. Source: https://x.com/Zlatti_71/status/1828529272539304278

I find it deeply uncomfortable that the HN contingent is rushing to defend the French government on this matter.

The European Union has been angling for more comprehensive access to messaging platforms with proposal after proposal.

Everyone here loves to sing the praises of the EU but broad regulatory powers is not a clear cut value proposition: European governments and those governed have a long history of oppression.

What's more, many of the broad regulatory powers have been used successfully by despotic regimes like China as cudgels not only to break apart monopolies (good) but to demand unfettered access to data (bad).

These accusations made by the French government of conspiracy on one individual and alleged invitations by a head of state to entrap should be chilling to anyone observing. It reminds me of what happened to Jack Ma, when Ant threatened the CPC's interests.

If Telegram really was not answering enforcement requests in a timely manner, then France should have moved against the company either through a direct ban on the app itself or other court action. Putting its CEO in prison sends a message. That message should be terrifying to anyone who values a free society.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#56

Post by HL33tibCe7 »

sschueller wrote: post #19

If Durov is liable for crimes committed on his platform how far away are we from making phone companies and ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services? This is a very slippery slope. I don't see a problem with requiring a company to cooperate with a court order to release data. However if a company does not have this data (because it's encrypted) it should not be liable or be required to collect such data.

> ISPs liable for crimes committed using their services?

If you host illegal content from your home network, the police alert your ISP, and the ISP did nothing, you can be sure the police will arrest them too.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#57

Post by [deleted] »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #50
xvector wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have robust cryptographic constructions for channels at this point. One is described in https://www.ietf.org/blog/mls-secure-and-usable-end-to-end-e...

If you’d have read the comment you’re replying to, you’d know that “robust cryptographic constructions” are irrelevant here, because channels are publicly-accessible.

[deleted]

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#58

Post by gdsfg534 »

tucnak wrote: post #17
stanislavb wrote: post #10

Some interesting facts: - Durov is, according to him, living in exile outside of Russia since 2014 - due to Russian gov persecution. - Since his "exile" - he has travelled 50-60 times to Russia https://www.reddit.com/r/Telegram/comments/1f2pgg3/pavel_dur... - Most Russian billionaires that live in exile and are persecuted by the RU gov fall from windows (or something tall) quite often. Durov has been living lavishly…

Interesting that this comment is down-voted. I think it's worth noting that Telegram LLC—as organisation itself—is anomalous to the point where it's consistent with Russian "cover" doctrine. For example, you wouldn't find ex-Telegram employees on Linkedin, Telegram itself seemingly doesn't invite people for interviews, there's no ex-Telegram people in the industry. Their open source software is developed using fake-u…

It's hilarious that what you impute to them is, essentially, that they don't have enough bullshit: useless management that hires endless hordes of bootcamp graduates for no reason (then lays them off when cheap money are over), no BS conferences without any substance, no hires of overpriced American "talent" when they have a tremendous pool of much much much more affordable and no less qualified people from CIS countries. Also, let's not pretend that a chat app is some kind of rocket science that requires a company of gazillion engineers and other stuff characteristic of VC funded special Olympics.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#59

Post by maeln »

janmo wrote: post #15

It is even possible that Durov has saved lives by not communicating user information to the french intelligence services. Recently have been a bunch of scandals where french intelligence officers where involved in murder plots. - There is "Haurus", a french intelligence officer who sold personal information on the darknet, in one case he sold personal information including the address of a drug dealer. Something that…

> - There is the murder of racing driver "Laurent Pasquali" who is presumed to have been killed by a french intelligence officer. The plot involved over 20 people with several of them being french intelligence officers. In fact they got his personal information and address to plan the murder plot through the french intelligence database.

The guy who is presumed to be the murderer is an ex-intelligence officer, not currently employed by the intelligence services.

> It is even possible that Durov has saved lives by not communicating user information to the french intelligence services.

And exactly how many did he condemned by letting criminal network run wild on his platform, with little to no moderation, and no collaboration with police forces ?

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#60

Post by yorwba »

NiekvdMaas wrote: post #35
janmo wrote: post #15

It is even possible that Durov has saved lives by not communicating user information to the french intelligence services. Recently have been a bunch of scandals where french intelligence officers where involved in murder plots. - There is "Haurus", a french intelligence officer who sold personal information on the darknet, in one case he sold personal information including the address of a drug dealer. Something that…

To make things even stranger, Durov was apparently invited to lunch by Macron. Instead of a presidential welcome, he was arrested on arrival. Source: https://x.com/Zlatti_71/status/1828529272539304278

Non-copypasta source: https://x.com/canardenchaine/status/1828438807697408059 (When Zlatti_71 signs off with "Remylind23" and can't spell the name of the French newspaper they're attributing, doesn't that make you a bit suspicious? And Le Canard enchaîné is a satirical newspaper, so it's not inconceivable that the story is made-up.)
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