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Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

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Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#51

Post by bdcravens »

OutOfHere wrote: post #25
bdcravens wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently less than 4% of Americans save any money. To assume that any would save enough to compound instead of spend in the absence of taxes is naive.

So you think the hardworking 4% should suffer like the rest of them? Even though they pay more taxes? Taxation is supposed to be fair, but your approach isn't.

It seems like you're assuming motivation where it doesn't exist. I'm simply stating that your belief that paid taxes would be compounded to 99% of income is quite a fantastic claim. Besides, there's no proof that the "hardworking" are necessarily more saving than those who aren't. Sometimes the highest earning have the highest rates of debt, ie, they don't save.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#52

Post by bdcravens »

verall wrote: post #37
OutOfHere wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think the hardworking 4% should suffer like the rest of them? Even though they pay more taxes? Taxation is supposed to be fair, but your approach isn't.

Do you think that the minority of the population which saves money works harder than the majority that does not save money? * I think that the 4% number is dubious but it's not material to the question.

I'm just going off of the documented personal savings rate.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#53

Post by beaglesss »

baseballdork wrote: post #50
beaglesss wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It scales fine, you can have private waste treatment en masse. Why should someone pay for my shit? Why is it their fault if I poop? It makes no sense. Also you can build your own septic for 5k if you do your own work. I'm honestly in shock you'd poop in the street to save the 40 or so a month it costs at worst, considering when I lived in the city I was billed sewage and it came out about the same as the amortized co…

> It scales fine How does this work in Manhattan? How about for a single apartment complex? It doesn’t scale. It works if you’re in a low density area benefiting from the taxes pulled from high density areas. > Also you can build your own septic for 5k if you do your own work. Something like 40% of Americans couldn’t field a $400 expense. > I'm honestly in shock you'd poop in the street to save the 40 or so a month i…

>How does this work in Manhattan? How about for a single apartment complex? It doesn’t scale.

Waste treatment system similar to many public systems. Charge by drain units, sewage pipe size, or maybe metered. Point is sewage treatment plant can be funded on individual apartment basis.

> works if you’re in a low density area benefiting from the taxes pulled from high density areas.

My area is far poorer than Manhattan but virtually everyone has a private septic system, and I've never seen poop in the street. You were previously paying for public poop now your just paying privately in lieu of publicly, and of course the homeless still probably shit in the street.

Also rural septic systems are almost never publicly funded.

>Something like 40% of Americans couldn’t field a $400 expense.

In practice in places like Manhattan you'd be paying for sewage monthly (when I lived in city that charged cost of sewage it was about 40 of my water bill). In rural areas septic is usually owned as part of mortgage or as debt services, if one cannot pay outright. All of which is amortized pretty close to real cost of sewage most anywhere.

>You’re in shock after discussing a place where it happens?

I'm in shock because having lived in areas that charge individually for sewage, the very few that don't spend the $1-$2 a day are either brutally poor or mentally ill, its just not a thing that people like you poop in the streets anyplace I've lived that charges near full rate for sewage treatment. As it were, the vast majority given the $1.40 a day to spare, will pay it to not have to poop outside or let it accumulate in their home, and if unable or unwilling to do so it is nearly always a symptom of something else that public sewers won't solve.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#54

Post by roenxi »

observationist wrote: post #42
OutOfHere wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "taxation is theft" group Let's be real here. With compounding, total taxation takes away 90% of income. If that's not theft, I don't know what is. There would be an appropriate level of taxation that would be fair, perhaps 10%.

With compounding, the potential earnings of someone who is taxed but invests over 50 years of work compared to someone else that isn't taxed but does the same investments comes out to about 50% gains of the second over the first. If someone is taxed and doesn't or can't save, or their retirement gets screwed up, or they make enough to get taxed but not enough to invest significantly, or finds themselves in any of a m…

> With compounding, the potential earnings of someone who is taxed but invests over 50 years of work compared to someone else that isn't taxed but does the same investments comes out to about 50% gains of the second over the first.

It might be too complicated to say. Someone who doesn't pay income tax, maybe. Depending on assumptions.

But I worked out at some point that >50% of my time spent working was being redirected towards the tax office - my income because it was taxed when I earned it (+ any stealthy payroll taxes), taxed again when it was spent and if it was invested in the middle it got taxed a third time for fake "capital gains" from money creation.

When you look at government spending (typically 40-50% of GDP in the West) and consider that most of that is probably malinvestment (by lack-of-alternatives-to-tax they're taking from the most economically productive members of society) you've probably lost more than half your wealth vs a no tax society. There is friction everywhere.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#56

Post by roenxi »

bdcravens wrote: post #20
OutOfHere wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "taxation is theft" group Let's be real here. With compounding, total taxation takes away 90% of income. If that's not theft, I don't know what is. There would be an appropriate level of taxation that would be fair, perhaps 10%.

Currently less than 4% of Americans save any money. To assume that any would save enough to compound instead of spend in the absence of taxes is naive.

That logic seems a bit circular. I don't endorse the 90% figure because I haven't thought about it, but for the sake of argument if you were faced with a choice where 90% of your income would be redirected away from you vs not saving it'd be expected that nobody would save.

So you can't argue that lack of savings under the current system implies no savings under a low-tax system. It is pretty reasonable to suggest that a big contributing factor to the lack of savings is precisely what the tax system does to savers.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#57

Post by wmf »

junar wrote: post #26

Related: IRS requires brokers to report certain sales of digital assets beginning in 2025. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/treasury-irs-issue-final-regula...

This was a huge mistake by the IRS; they should have required this in 2013.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#58

Post by wmf »

conradev wrote: post #18
warkdarrior wrote: post #2

Isn't that by design? Many/most crypto schemes are designed to democratize access to money and thus they disintermediate traditional players (banks, central banks, etc.). Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature.

Coinbase follows US law. They are designed to disintermediate traditional players like banks, yes, but not the USG. They are at the mercy of the USG.

Yet they resisted sending 1099s for years.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#59

Post by mistercheph »

beaglesss wrote: post #40
mistercheph wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try saving the local currency in a country with a government that is actively debasing its currency to fund the ventures of its aristocracy, and you will understand that having access to a secure, transferable store of the value of your work is not universal, but a privilege assured by the power of trillions of dollars of fighter jets.

Gold and many other useful commodities are valuable with or without fighter jets backing them.

Yes, but not transferable.

Re: Crypto tax evasion is 'pervasive'

#60

Post by baseballdork »

beaglesss wrote: post #53
baseballdork wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It scales fine How does this work in Manhattan? How about for a single apartment complex? It doesn’t scale. It works if you’re in a low density area benefiting from the taxes pulled from high density areas. > Also you can build your own septic for 5k if you do your own work. Something like 40% of Americans couldn’t field a $400 expense. > I'm honestly in shock you'd poop in the street to save the 40 or so a month i…

>How does this work in Manhattan? How about for a single apartment complex? It doesn’t scale. Waste treatment system similar to many public systems. Charge by drain units, sewage pipe size, or maybe metered. Point is sewage treatment plant can be funded on individual apartment basis. > works if you’re in a low density area benefiting from the taxes pulled from high density areas. My area is far poorer than Manhattan…

> Waste treatment system similar to many public systems.

So we agree it doesn’t scale. You can’t have 1,000 people each digging their own septic system around an apartment complex. What you’re proposing is adding cost and complexity to sewage in order to ensure you only pay for your shit.

> Also rural septic systems are almost never publicly funded.

Indeed, but literally all of the infrastructure up and down the supply chain that makes a $5k septic system available to you is.

> In rural areas septic is usually owned as part of mortgage or as debt services, if one cannot pay outright.

Ah, so you’d rather the poor pay interest on the ability to shit? Surreal.

> brutally poor or mentally ill

Yes, and I don’t think those people ought to be unable to shit in dignity. The libertarian dream is a nightmare.

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