I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons • Hacker News Board

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#51

Post by drumdance » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:38 PM UTC

why-el wrote: post #44

I have never been to a hackathon, but I do find the conditions of some of them a little strange. Why not provide normal work (call them fun if you want) hours for participants, say 8 hours distributed over three to four days? If your concern is people using the spare hours to work more on their products, well then great, make that part of the rules. In this case they will get three 8 hours shifts with all the support…

Reality intrudes. If you have a day job, or even if you're a student, it's hard to allocate 3-4 days to something that is not either paying the bills or contributing to your studies.

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#52

Post by olivercameron » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:39 PM UTC

ryancarson wrote: post #37

olivercameron wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not entirely sure how someone can be taken advantage of at a hackathon. Are you implying that someone will steal their product? Or that they'll somehow be convinced to give up a large % stake in their project by someone who can't code? Again, an example of a hackathon where this has happened would be great. Besmirching the name of hackathons in general is wrong. As for hacker mansions, the post you linked to…

You can be taken advantage of simply by participating. Hackathons that are tacked on to events are a great example: they're simply a way to sell more tickets. I've been guilty of this in the past on shows we've done (Twitter's Chirp conf, etc). Can good things happen at these hackathons? You bet. That doesn't mean Developers shouldn't be careful though. As for "20-hour days", that's just a number you've thrown out. W…

Have you ever lived in a hacker house? I haven't, and if you haven't, then I don't think either of us are in the position to say the whole point of living in a hacker house is to work non-stop. You simply don't know that.

Of course lots of work is going to get done at such a place, but who said that the experience and fun wouldn't also be incredibly beneficial to a young developer?

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#53

Post by Zak » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

ryancarson wrote: post #31

olivercameron wrote: post #23

I'm not entirely sure what hackathons Ryan Carson has been to, but this post is seriously misguided. Developers don't go to hackathons to be "code monkeys", rather they go to build something cool in a fun environment. It's often a great break outside of the day job to build something they would otherwise not have the motivation to. No one is stealing their concept or forcing them to take it further, it's just fun. As…

I agree with you on the reason Developers go to hackathons. That's why they're so likely to be taken advantage of. I'm simply saying that the young developer community needs to be wary. Regarding "hacker mansions" a cursory read of this job posting should reveal what I'm referring to: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3961037 It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer a…

That ad is for an internship, not a hackathon. It offers room, board and $3333/month. That's a better offer than most summer jobs for college students and more money than most students would make freelancing. Unpaid internships are still disturbingly common. The ad makes it clear that real work is expected. I really don't see a problem here.

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#54

Post by mmahemoff » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

I feel that Ryan's conflating hackathons - 1-2 day coding events - with 2+ week residence situations where you would probably be trying to actually build a business.

Some developers do enjoy drinking redbull and sleeping under a desk because evidently they do it voluntarily. I don't see the problem with that.

What's missing from the arguments in the article? I'm generally a supporter of hackathons, but if I was to play devil's advocate and advise caution among developers, I'd say:

* Although the entry price is usually free/nominal, there's still the opportunity cost of your time. And hackathons can leave you pretty drained for the next day, so a weekend hackathon needs to be justifiably worth it in terms of the learning, fun, and/or social connections you'll make from it.

* Most hackathons nowadays are sponsored by companies wanting to promote their platforms among developers. If the focus or requirement is to use those platforms, you need to think hard about whether they're worth your effort.

* You will be subjected to pitches of varying lengths. I've witnessed "one day hackathons" which were half a day of preamble. So your hacking efforts may be minimal.

* Wifi access is critical and if the organisers haven't got their act together, you would have been more productive at home.

* You can learn a technology at a hackathon or you can build something cool. You will be disappointed if you expect to do both at the same event.

* If you're trying to start a business at a weekend, coding is probably not the way to do it. So if you're going to a pure coding hackathon with the aim of starting a business, you will probably be disappointed. (Startup Weekend etc make more sense for that.)

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#55

Post by geon » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

mmphosis wrote: post #11

wylie wrote: post #3

Developers go to hackathons because they like to build things. What could be simpler to understand?

Kinda like this... Dear Hackers, Here is the challenge: Please create the next killer app, and give all the rights to me so I can take all of your work and make a bundle of cash. I know you like building things, and I like making money. Seems like a good arrangement to me. I might even throw in a free T-shirt.

Wait... Who in their right mind would work for free on someone else's project? And sign away the ownership of the code (non open source) for them to profit from?

Every programmer I know have more ideas than they will ever have time to finish. Why would they do something like that?

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#56

Post by drumdance » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:43 PM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #33

jpdoctor wrote: post #10

> They’re probably just trying to cash in on your youth and optimism. It is the nature of optimistic youth that they rarely notice. And when they do, they quickly become old codgers (like the person typing this comment.)

"They’re probably just trying to cash in on your youth and optimism." I find this about most companies, especially in silicon valley. Just look at Google or Facebook. They get 20 somethings right out of college and work them to the bone on a salary (IE: you don't get paid any extra). Sure, you can go home at 5, but you most likely won't get a promotion when everyone around you is working until 7 or 8.

IME your description of twenty-somethings as cannon fodder is more common on Wall Street and at IT consulting firms than Silicon Valley. For example, everything I've read is that Facebook does not overwork their employees in the course of normal business.

http://www.quora.com/Facebook-Inc-company/What-are-the-avera...

In the very early days of a startup (< 50 employees), people often work crazy hours. But everything I've seen suggests that once you start to scale, crazy hours are less common except when deadlines loom.

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#57

Post by larrys » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:43 PM UTC

ryancarson wrote: post #31

olivercameron wrote: post #23

I'm not entirely sure what hackathons Ryan Carson has been to, but this post is seriously misguided. Developers don't go to hackathons to be "code monkeys", rather they go to build something cool in a fun environment. It's often a great break outside of the day job to build something they would otherwise not have the motivation to. No one is stealing their concept or forcing them to take it further, it's just fun. As…

I agree with you on the reason Developers go to hackathons. That's why they're so likely to be taken advantage of. I'm simply saying that the young developer community needs to be wary. Regarding "hacker mansions" a cursory read of this job posting should reveal what I'm referring to: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3961037 It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer a…

"It's clearly written by someone who thinks they can throw material things at a Developer and then get them to work 20-hour days for three months straight."

Clearly? Given it's almost certainly not a 9 to 5 job. But I fail to see anything that indicates the job is consists of "20-hour days for three months straight".

As an aside part of being young (or not knowing about something when you are old) is learning from experience. Even though I don't necessarily agree that this involves 20 hour days, it seems like a reasonable paid opportunity and a good environment. If I wanted to break into TV, I would totally think it was reasonable to spend time as a 24 hour a day personal assistant to an important person doing whatever needed to be done to make connections.

FWIW I spent some time recently doing free work for a VC in something I know about. And, viola, they are now sending me paid customers. Just like that. I gave them hours and hours of my time (with no expectation of any return) and it has paid off.

I really think you have the wrong attitude toward this situation.

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#58

Post by petercooper » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

They don’t want to drink Red Bull all night and sleep under their desks.

Some of us do from time to time. It's fun. I've got a family, etc, but I like geeky extra curricular activities in the same way other people like gardening, hiking, or whatever.

All that said, I've seen the sort of hackathons Ryan's describing and they're a kind of stereotype in the same way "brogrammers" are a programmer stereotype. They're not the majority, they're just the cases people seem to be gossiping about. (Scoble has been to and written about quite a few good ones over the years, I think, and here in the UK, they're certainly more down to earth generally.)

So I think Ryan has a point for the opportunists' hackathons but not hackathons generally, and it's easy to misinterpret it that way.

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#59

Post by alecco » Sun, May 20, 2012, 9:51 PM UTC

Another related issue are the startup accelerators claiming to be based on the Y Combinator model. Full of MBAs and no hackers in sight. They only offer office space, marketing advice, template spreadsheets, and a very tiny bit of money (none of it for paying workers).

Re: I’m tired of the opportunists and their hackathons

#60

Post by edwinnathaniel » Sun, May 20, 2012, 10:06 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #28

jpdoctor wrote: post #10

> They’re probably just trying to cash in on your youth and optimism. It is the nature of optimistic youth that they rarely notice. And when they do, they quickly become old codgers (like the person typing this comment.)

I don't think you're giving enough credit to the optimistic youth! They notice all right, most of them just don't care enough because all they really want to do is programming, motherfucker. After X years in the industry their passion might fade (and possibly their skill if they stop coding altogether), but it's not naïvety that gives rise to the occasional optimistic youth who gets screwed.

I think you're giving more credit than youth deserved. Almost all youth are exactly like that: naive.