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"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

joethepeacock.blogspot.co.uk

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Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#51

There is also a hidden aspect of it: Those people who don't overcome teenage awkwardness. Those who never regain their confidence and end up the weird tech dude at the office whom no one ever speaks to. This guy might be able to feed the kids confidence, and then you can encourage "weirdness", but it isn't always as easy as that. Sometimes parents should just tell their kids to go play sports or whatever, no matter i…

I'm hoping you mean encouraging your child to continue seeking out new and different groups (sports, clubs, whatever) until he finds a place where people will accept his strong individuality.

If, however, you mean forcing him to join a group of "normal" people who will hammer him into the "normal" mold, I take great exception to your advice.

There is no worse blow to your self esteem than selling out on yourself to gain the approval of others. Yes, people in general like to belong, so let them CHOOSE to belong to a group that accepts them being themselves.

Here's what generally happens when you force an individualist into a group not of his choosing:

1. He resents you for deciding whom his friends should be.

2. It destroys his confidence because even YOU don't believe in him.

3. By the law of averages, his new group is likely to be comprised of exactly the kinds of phonies he hates, and they're likely to dislike him for his "weirdness".

Confidence is one of the, if not THE most important thing in the world. People respect confidence, even if they hate you. Bullying is an attempt to destroy your confidence while building the bully's confidence in himself by thinking he's the better man for destroying someone weaker than him (and so long as you don't fight back, he's right, btw). Most people get their confidence by herding with other people and mimicking them. It gives them a false sense of security, but it's confidence all the same. Unfortunately, that confidence comes at the price of never being able to be their true selves, and never being able to chase dreams that differ too much from the accepted norm.

Individuality and confidence are a potent blend. They breed explorers and free thinkers, poets, philosophers, disruptors, and cross-cultural bridges. They drive a person to blaze a trail of his own, bringing him after many trials and tribulations to doors that open but for a select few. However, this only happens IF he has the confidence in himself to try, and that comes both from within, and from his support base (you). Don't take that away from him!

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#52
“Even the furry had more friends than I did.”

That’s a bit harsh.

Still, the overall sentiment is very much on point. It’s not really expected that a high school student should think for himself and go about his life normally, without adopting a particular social identity. Unfortunately, it simply doesn’t occur to some of us to bother trying to fit in. But if you keep an independent, open mind and learn to deal with people, you’ll do fine no matter what.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#53
It's a great post. One of my kids struggles socially, and I've had similar conversations.

I'd add this: You have to love the things you love. When you meet people who love the same things, and it could be a while, your friendships will go deep because they're founded on something deep and dear to you. And you'll be a great partner in exploration because you know these great things. Conceding yourself to other people's notions now erodes your ability to form real relationships later.

Which isn't to say such kids shouldn't look for as much commonality they can find. And they should note that they may have some genuinely negative and offputting behaviors which they shouldn't accept in themselves. It's very hard for these kids to pick out the social cues that they should read because they get so many they shouldn't.

But yeah, kids need to hear that it can sometimes take a long time to find their place.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#54
post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

The by far most important thing you learn in school is being social. That dwarfs everything else.

Yes, being bullied sucks but keep in mind that your kids will have to meet other kids as well, and if they are homeschooled they are going to appear weird just because they don't go to school and thus don't behave the same in crowds as everyone else does (trust me, this gets noticed instantly). That alone is basis enough for being bullied and that will only make them retract even more to the comfort of your home - and that could arguably be even worse than being bullied (in the long run).

Any kid that gets bullied is of course a serious problem and should be dealt with as best as possible (although it is a very hard problem to solve).

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#55
Nice, that will help him alot.

As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem.

There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffrents in the schooling system.

In Switzerland (most parts) we have 1-2 years of Kindergarden, 6 years of Elementry School and then the people get split up in 3 diffrent section depending on your grade. The lower to only take 3 more years and after them mandatory school is finished and most people start an profecional education via the Dual Education System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system). The other way is to go 6 more years and then most people go to a universety.

The good parts are that more often then not you put people to gather that go together. The typical movie example where the bull beats up the nerd doesnt really happen. The next positiv thing is that you put people together that are about equal in how fast they learn. The guy who always distracts the class will not hold back the guy who wants to learn. The studends get the matiral in there own speed, thus they don't feel stupid because of the fast learners, witch can be bad for confidence and it can cause social conflicts.

The bad is of course that you split up frindships because people go to diffrent schools and you just don't see each other that much anymore. This happend to me and only years later we really start hanging out again. Today kids are much better equiped to deal with this. To other bad thing is that often good studends could help the others.

It seams to me spliting up teenagers that are in puberty is good way to avoid social problems.

Other opinions why this problem seams worst in the US or is it just selection bias?

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#56

You can have all of the upvotes they'll let me give you. It's amazing being "all grown up" and looking out and realizing that highschool and all of the shit that happens while growing up has almost no connection to the real world.

Isn't the 'real world' relative? To a kid in high school, that is the real world. To a grown man among his peers at work, that is the real world. I never understood telling kids that high school wasn't the real world. I can understand telling them it gets better (and it does, I know) but to try to mask certain stages of their lives as not real doesn't seem genuine.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#58
post #17
post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

While I understand your point of view based on this one observation, I think this is a terrible idea if you look at the big picture. Whether they get bullied or not, high school is an extremely important time for kids to gain social skills and learn how to deal with people. Dealing with people is one of the most important skills you can have, period. And that often means dealing with people that are being dicks, and…

"I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later."

It is not necessarily the case that being homeschooled automatically equates to a child that has been sheltered from the real world. In reality, whether or not a child has missed out due to homeschooling depends heavily on the parents that are doing the homeschooling. A parent can homeschool their child and simulate a private school by integrating classes (with groups of children) from museums, libraries, and independent instructors. A parent can also homeschool their child by putting on a DVD and walking away.

I was homeschooled from pre-kindergarten through 12th grade. My parents relied on a lot of external classes to ensure that I was still able to develop the ability to interact with others. The reality for me was that I was able to have a far richer social environment as a result of my being homeschooled. By the time that I entered college, I had interacted with far more cultures and personality types than most of those around me. I went on to successfully complete my undergraduate and graduate degrees.

When I was homeschooled, I kept in contact with a small handful of friends that were also homeschooled. They all went on to do just fine in both college and in life. I realize that my experiences and those of my peers are anecdotal, but a study performed by the Discovery Institute in 2000 also provided evidence that there is no "sheltering" involved with most homeschools: http://www.discovery.org/a/3479

(Please note, I actually take issue with a few things in the Discovery Institute study, but I think that it does provide some degree of evidence that homeschooling does not automatically result in a maladjusted child.)

In my economics courses, we would sometimes take a look at the economic returns of education. I always found it strangely comical when someone would speak harshly about how homeschoolers are "sheltered" and then turn to me for moral support. It was always such a shock to everyone to hear that I had been homeschooled for my entire life. Some people even called me a liar outright. (I have always wondered what is it about homeschooling that seems to rub people the wrong way?)

I am well-spoken, outgoing, and have an easy time dealing with people. I do not say this (or anything else in this post) braggingly, but I say it to give credit to my parents for what their sacrifices were able to accomplish for me. You say that "sheltering" is the "reality" of what will happen, but how are you so sure of this?

I believe that the results of homeschooling, much like other forms of schooling, is a product of the teacher, the student, and the approach. I do not disagree that sometimes, with homeschooling, some children are not able to develop social skills. What I disagree with, strongly, is your insinuation that "sheltering is the reality of homeschool". Homeschooling a child does not automatically mean that the child will struggle socially.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#59
post #19

Is this a US thing? In Ukraine, no-one is weird. No-one is a geek, or a nerd -- there aren't even equivalent words in our language. Nobody thinks less of you if you're smart, shy, or talk about transistors on occasion. There are no "popular kids", and even the scariest kid in school is not a bully. So, again, what is wrong with US schools?

I think one important cultural thing is that, in the US, schools really are the center of your social life, including after-school sports, clubs, etc.

There are other countries where school is just school (more like a job), where there are no sports/clubs/etc., and your social life revolves more around your family and long-term friends. Sports might come from totally separate organizations. In this case, school is much less of a social thing. So maybe that has something to do with it.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#60
I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given.

In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever), and I have to be extra-careful with what I say and do, otherwise people freak out. Sometimes I slip and people think I'm crazy. But I'm getting better know, and I have a group of friend with which I can be myself. I provoke them playfully and they understand that it's just the way I am. And I'm grateful that they do.

Someone quoted Alain de Boutton in the thread: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them". That's exactly right, but intimacy is not something you get immediately, for free. It's something you have to build, it takes time, and sometimes it doesn't work. Most of all, it takes compromises: people will accept you as you are when they realize that you're interesting and that you care about them.

Now why should weird people go out of their way to befriend other people? Well you have to be pragmatic here, and think about what you really want. Friendship is an amazing thing, and is available to anyone, weird or not, and doesn't require you to change who you are. It just requires you to be patient and take it step by step. Is it being hypocritical? Pretending you're normal when you really aren't? Not if it's temporary. Think of it as a way to create a first contact, before working your way to a real connection, where both parties can act natural. That's what social interactions are about, that's what all this highschool BS is about, and that's why I think it's a bad idea to home school your kids.

EDIT: An example of my weirdness in action: I often mess up with girls I really like just because I can't help saying outrageous things just to spark a good old argument. Damn.

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