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Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

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Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#51

Post by tguvot »

atoav wrote: post #47
tguvot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone you are kind wrong. majority of population realists. everybody knows that palestinians don't go anywhere. there are no majority opinion in favor of "genociding" palestinians. majority of population was excited to hear news ab…

> you are kind wrong. majority of population realists. I have no doubt about that. If you read my post I did not use the word majority anywhere. I used "a big part". Now the obvious question is: how big is "big" from the perspective of such a conflict? I don't think it needs many hardliners on both sides to keep the thing going indefinitely. It then just needs many who shrug and let them do it. > collective punishmen…

majority... big part.. small part... fringe minority.. how big is small and how small is big. gotcha.

this awkward moment when /r/worldnews has a more nuanced discussion using historical facts and not newspaper clippings.

idf speaker btw just said that there is a team analyzing uploaded videos using face recognition software (this is topical, right ?) in order to find all those who participated and to punish them. lets add extrajudicial killings (did I name it right ?) to list of things that complicate this conflict.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#52

Post by raxxorraxor »

Prickle wrote: post #20

I despise this kind of backlash. Everyone always says "Free speech, but not speech without consequence". But this kind of reactionary consequences are precisely why it's an issue. You don't actually have free speech, if the consequences of free speech are so great, that it becomes career suicide. Not allowed to speak against crowd, and all that entails.

The concept of freedom of speech explicitly states that no punitive consequences are allowed as the result of speech. Of course there is the trivial reality that there are consequences to everything and people also have a right to disassociate with you, but at that point you indeed violate the principle. That isn't a crime, but universities should have a higher standard.

The latest rather pop-interpretation of freedom of speech is rather stupid, especially in an academic context. So far so that I believe that you aren't really fit for academic education if you really believe that.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#53

Post by raxxorraxor »

bluish29 wrote: post #22

I find that the many of the collective western reaction to this recent events is no different from some the reaction of russians against people opposing the war in Ukraine. In Germany police will harras/arrest you if you are wearing Palestinian flag even before this events. They even ban any try to organize any event in nakba (anniversary of Palestinians losing their land) [1] There is a suggestion to the English pol…

There are no genocidal events and you are just espousing propaganda.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#54

Post by raxxorraxor »

atoav wrote: post #35
tguvot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the funny part, that you wrote a very long post that tries to be "nuanced", yet, you are missing so many nuances and facts that it's not too different from average headline of "israel performs genocide" i just saw fascinating thread on /r/politics when somebody, obviously arab, from one of the poorer countries probably tried to explain to other people what is middle east and how it clicks. he was blamed for trying to…

Everybody has their own gaze with which they judge what they see. As someone who has been following world politics since young age and really would love to see this seemingly everlasting conflict resolved and human suffering on all sides reduced, my prefered solution would be one where the Palestinians are alive, free and lost all incentives to carry out terrorist attacks so that both sides in this conflict can final…

There are countrless statements, which you also see paraded in other countries for that matter, that want the destruction of Israel. Official voices included.

From the river to the sea... is not just another lifestyle position. I would argue that you might not have followed the conflict too closely.

Gaza did get more autonomy. They even had the chance to found their own country. They responded with war and I don't think there can be an alternative "history" to that.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#55

Post by candiodari »

nielsbot wrote: post #7
coffeefirst wrote: post #5

I see stuff like this, and the first place my mind goes isn't to the antisemitism (it really never dies), or student-run organizations saying dumb things (again, not surprising). The first place my mind goes, is... does Harvard not teach history classes?

What do you mean not teach history class? I am not well informed about this area—is there specific history you referring to?

Most importantly? That history is nuanced and that no single event determines all of history. That every country invaded and conquered every single cm of land they currently occupy, with only a few stupid exceptions in particularly inhospitable places (like I believe Iceland).

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#56

Post by bluish29 »

tguvot wrote: post #46
beernet wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Isreali defence minister is literally using a language that was used during previous genocidal events. He literally said thet they are in a fight with "human animals" [4] Any idea why he would say that?

he was referring to hamas. not to population of gaza in general. people in israel are somewhat emotional those days. biggest jewish civilian life loss since wwII in one day. if you extrapolate it to us population, it's if 37000 civilians are murdered in 1 day in brutal way. pretty much everbody in israel either lost somebody or knows somebody who did.

Does this Make the Isreali military human animals? because in pure numbers they killed much more Palestinians. And much more per capita from Palestine population over the years?

All the comments (and down votes) are not responding to my comment in a good faith and ignoring my core message is that it is not about isreal loses this week. The conflict root causes are the injustice. You cannot for example start the events in Ukraine from Ukrainian attacks on kirch bridge and crimea that cause civilians casualties. This will be dishonest and all people will agree on this.

But somehow isreal always gets exception and a pass for anything.

And someone here described my comment as propaganda although I just described facts. How much Palestinian needs to die for your liking so that you will consider this genocide. How much injustice do you want them to suffer? Cutting food, water supply and prevention of any aid to enter while doing mass bombing is not enough.

The US military nuked two cities full of civilians and half of the American still consider that this was a good thing to end a war. The logic ia being used by some people and I am afraid that it will be employed against the Palestinian population.

Ignoring all my comment and facts I provided via western sources and the lie spread by biden in plain sight and down voting is just dishonest.

It will be always the case that in the western world the life of Palestinians are cheap. The history begins always at the point where isreal wants.

You support apartheid state that declare itself as it is. The world is watching all that in silence. The classic video from 2021 describes an interaction in Jerusalem between settler and Palestinian evicted from their home and bonus point a quick interview with him. [1]

being blind to all this is something unbelievable.

[1] https://youtu.be/_hwJczFoDhc?feature=shared

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#57

Post by [deleted] »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #53
bluish29 wrote: post #22

I find that the many of the collective western reaction to this recent events is no different from some the reaction of russians against people opposing the war in Ukraine. In Germany police will harras/arrest you if you are wearing Palestinian flag even before this events. They even ban any try to organize any event in nakba (anniversary of Palestinians losing their land) [1] There is a suggestion to the English pol…

There are no genocidal events and you are just espousing propaganda.

[deleted]

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#58

Post by tguvot »

bluish29 wrote: post #56
tguvot wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he was referring to hamas. not to population of gaza in general. people in israel are somewhat emotional those days. biggest jewish civilian life loss since wwII in one day. if you extrapolate it to us population, it's if 37000 civilians are murdered in 1 day in brutal way. pretty much everbody in israel either lost somebody or knows somebody who did.

Does this Make the Isreali military human animals? because in pure numbers they killed much more Palestinians. And much more per capita from Palestine population over the years? All the comments (and down votes) are not responding to my comment in a good faith and ignoring my core message is that it is not about isreal loses this week. The conflict root causes are the injustice. You cannot for example start the event…

I'll suggest you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah_controversy for purpose of general education on this specific and rather mundane real estate conflict that got escalated into this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_...

besides this it's not clear what is your message and there are too many different things to respond to. so that's it.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#59

Post by mensetmanusman »

Prickle wrote: post #20

I despise this kind of backlash. Everyone always says "Free speech, but not speech without consequence". But this kind of reactionary consequences are precisely why it's an issue. You don't actually have free speech, if the consequences of free speech are so great, that it becomes career suicide. Not allowed to speak against crowd, and all that entails.

Non violent backlash is actually an amazing outcome considering how awful the human reaction can get.

Re: Harvard student groups issued anti-Israel statement, CEOs want them blacklisted

#60

Post by mensetmanusman »

dragonwriter wrote: post #43
rayiner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to claim “right wing cancel culture” when the person is an establishment democrat.

The dominant faction of the Democratic Party is center-right, and the donor base is even more right-weighted.

“No true democrat”
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