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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#51

Post by ajross »

bh42222 wrote: post #37

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same…

Sorry, but if one person in 30 is being a jerk, that is a steady stream of subtle harassment. Most professionals deal with what, 60 people on a weekly basis? That's two jerks every week.

And your math is off. Even if there was only one woman in tech anywhere, reducing 100% male interaction to 50% male interaction would only decrease the jerk count by a factor of two.

Re: "Lighten up"

#52

Post by hythloday »

duaneb wrote: post #9
kcunning wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I left that a little vague (the original title was clearer about me staying in IT). I'm still a developer. It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change.

> It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change. Good! I think that's the right decision. I can't imagine what would cause the world to get better about this aside from women, on a global scale, making it very clear that it's not OK.

How about men, on a global scale, making it very clear that it's not OK?

Re: "Lighten up"

#53

Post by squadron »

Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things?

If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.

Re: "Lighten up"

#54

Post by andywood »

benihana wrote: post #42
tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself? Trying to bash down a gender role by…

What about "Because he would have been angry about it, and sometimes we don't make the best decisions when we're angry?" Why go fishing for the least charitable reading?

Re: "Lighten up"

#55

Post by j_baker »

sgt wrote: post #36
tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

He's actually got a point. She may be victimizing herself and blowing this way out of proportion. There are plenty of guys out there also taking "shit" from co-workers but biting the bullet and rather coming up with a witty response than shutting themselves in.

I'm a guy who's taken "shit" from co-workers before, and it's no fun. Rather than keep coming up with witty retorts, it's usually best just to get out of the situation entirely.

Re: "Lighten up"

#56

Post by daenz »

sgt wrote: post #36
tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

He's actually got a point. She may be victimizing herself and blowing this way out of proportion. There are plenty of guys out there also taking "shit" from co-workers but biting the bullet and rather coming up with a witty response than shutting themselves in.

I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.

Re: "Lighten up"

#57

Post by Shivetya »

georgieporgie wrote: post #24

Well said. I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old manchildren.

Wait till you come across the thumpers, we have one, his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category.

Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?

Re: "Lighten up"

#58

Post by RandallBrown »

crusso wrote: post #39
omgsean wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.

Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"? While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamm…

there were other books he also read, one of which mentioned ejaculating on a prostitutes face. I think Enders Game just happened to be the most notable of the books that the teacher read to the class.

Re: "Lighten up"

#59

Post by bh42222 »

ajross wrote: post #51
bh42222 wrote: post #37

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same…

Sorry, but if one person in 30 is being a jerk, that is a steady stream of subtle harassment. Most professionals deal with what, 60 people on a weekly basis? That's two jerks every week. And your math is off. Even if there was only one woman in tech anywhere, reducing 100% male interaction to 50% male interaction would only decrease the jerk count by a factor of two.

I don't know about you, but I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman.

And we wouldn't reduce male interaction by 50%, we would increase female participation by hundreds of percents.

That way if someone is being a jerk, many people can all confirm he's being a jerk.

Re: "Lighten up"

#60

Post by stcredzero »

bh42222 wrote: post #37

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same…

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women.

This reminds me of growing up Asian in rural northern Appalachia. It also reminds me of discussions I've heard on local African American radio talk shows. There's this constant subtle pressure one feels, and it is the result of knowing one is subject to arbitrary disrespect coming from out of the woodwork. The fact that it's often "plausibly" deniable doesn't make it better.

Knowing that you have a target on you does have an effect. That it's fairly uncommon doesn't make it better, if it happens often enough that the possibility is always lurking in the background. It's easy to see how this could impact someone involved in creative activities.

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