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An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

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Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#51

Post by tehwebguy »

willcipriano wrote: post #38
hnburnsy wrote: post #33

All these tools and murder clearance rates are still historical low. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unso...

NPR a few years ago: "Defund the police, all cops are bastards, snitches get stitches!" NPR Today: "Why are murders going unsolved?"

I don’t believe there’s any proof of any police departments in the US being defunded.

It’s likely that one or two had their budgets drop by a marginal percent for a single year only and then got a substantial increase in budget the next year.

The murder clearance rate has been in the toilet for decades, maybe forever, everywhere in the US.

It’s also likely that you knew this already!

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#52

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

daniel-cussen wrote: post #26

So i'm in favor of police going back to the basics, good old-fashioned detective work. The forensics are not what they're cracked up to be, there's very little verifiability n verification, too easy for the forensics lab to lie through their teeth or contaminate the scene of the crime. Like when the Duke Lacross players had to hire a very expensive lawyer to do the messy work of proving evidence actually traced back…

I have come to believe that the "Sherlock Holmes" tales were a massive copaganda campaign designed to prime the general public for advanced forensic investigation techniques.

I mean, Sherlock could "deduce" anything with his magnifying glass just by looking at a clump of mud on a shoe, or a thread of fabric on a lady's dress. But meanwhile, the actual police were developing actual scientifically-based theories of evidentiary examination that would revolutionize the jobs of detectives everywhere.

Sherlock Holmes's powers of deduction were, of course, exaggerated and improbable. Nevertheless, the author was probably privy to scientific developments that held promise. Fingermarks, for example, were emerging in law enforcement contemporary with Conan Doyle's writings.

If you want an amusing modern take on this, and you love to watch copaganda shows, I recommend the Canadian Murdoch Mysteries. They combine emerging science of the late 19th century with some really outlandish steampunk stuff ("The Tesla Effect") and it's a rollicking homage to Sherlock Holmes.

Anyway, fast-forward to the present day. I feel like police are way too reliant on technology instead of doing their job. I feel like the general public watches way too much CSI and NCIS and they expect to see an Abby Sciuto in every precint. I believe that if LEOs weren't shelving all those rape kits for 20 years, and spending $millions on bogus "gunshot detection" networks, and not purchasing literal urban assault vehicles and a stockpile of ammunition to rival Ruby Ridge, I think that they might focus their efforts on something more productive. Anything more productive.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#53

Post by tehwebguy »

willcipriano wrote: post #50
Eisenstein wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you operate using anything besides fallacies?

> no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates). No evidence. The experts are clear, police funding doesn't have anything to do with murder clearance rates. I mean that's super counter intuitive, I'd think the more interviews you do, the more forensics you have done, the more likely you are to solve the c…

Yeah, if we defund the police and I get burgled who am I supposed to call when I want someone to show up eight hours later, shoot my dog, and tell me there’s nothing they can do to help?

(Apologies for not just linking to the evergreen tweet, couldn’t find it)

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#54

Post by willcipriano »

tehwebguy wrote: post #53
willcipriano wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates). No evidence. The experts are clear, police funding doesn't have anything to do with murder clearance rates. I mean that's super counter intuitive, I'd think the more interviews you do, the more forensics you have done, the more likely you are to solve the c…

Yeah, if we defund the police and I get burgled who am I supposed to call when I want someone to show up eight hours later, shoot my dog, and tell me there’s nothing they can do to help? (Apologies for not just linking to the evergreen tweet, couldn’t find it)

Let me guess, they live in a major city led mostly by people who love NPR?

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#55

Post by gottorf »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #44
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre. Like when you see the police do something absolutely brutally and clear as day a breach of duty and violating someone's rights that should have them not only fired and barred from ever again serving in law enforcement but also put in jail; yet are 'clear…

> Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre. This is at best naive. People in power, when not already aligned into some faction or cartel tend to be adversarial with each other. People in power like keeping theirs, but also taking others'. Thus, they are also on guard about others taking their po…

> We could get rid of the abusive police (that's all of them), and nothing would get worse for you.

How do you suppose that rule of law will continue to exist without some mechanism against the rule- and law-breakers? Do any historical examples exist of this working sustainably over the long run?

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#56

Post by mrguyorama »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #36
daniel-cussen wrote: post #26

So i'm in favor of police going back to the basics, good old-fashioned detective work. The forensics are not what they're cracked up to be, there's very little verifiability n verification, too easy for the forensics lab to lie through their teeth or contaminate the scene of the crime. Like when the Duke Lacross players had to hire a very expensive lawyer to do the messy work of proving evidence actually traced back…

It's not enough for the police to discover (to their own satisfaction) who committed a crime. The point is to prosecute the offender or otherwise resolve it in a way that protects the public. "Old-fashioned detective work" doesn't help with that at all. What does it turn up? Eyewitnesses? About the worst evidence possible, on par with dreams and reading tea leaves. Sometimes it bullies someone into perjury. That's no…

Absolutely, a significant portion of "old timey police work" was to blame it on the least liked guy you could find. A large percentage of people ON DEATH ROW are later proved innocent by actual evidence, including people who were convicted by those "old timey" methods.

>Forensics are about the only thing that counts as real evidence outside of capturing crimes on video

One huge problem is what courts accept as "forensics" is closer to CSI bullshit than actual science. Most forensic methods have no basis in science, come from a single ex cop who goes around the country speaking to other cops for a hundred grand a pop, and a network of "experts" who are willing to tell a jury that it is "scientifically sound" for a few thousand dollars. Things like handwriting analysis, micro-expressions, all the nancy drew types who pour over a ten second 911 call to overanalyze every tick and stammer in the stressed callers voice to paint them as the perp (THIS IS A REAL THING THAT HAPPENS)

If it wasn't outright illegal, American police would 100% be using lie detectors as evidence

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#57

Post by aidenn0 »

sezycei wrote: post #34
aidenn0 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's about as rural as Santa Barbara.

These two municipalities may have similar populations, but this statement is not really fair. Evansville is the only major population center for anyone within a ~75-100 miles from it in most directions. It is absolutely a rural "city"; businesses in Evansville have a significant number of their employees commuting from ~500-5000 person towns in Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, and Southwestern Indiana. It is sign…

Okay, I did exaggerate a bit, but it's not that unfair. Ventura is only 30 miles away to the East (or South if you are asking for directions), which is a lot less remote than Evansville, but going up the coast the other way, Santa Maria is pretty far away.

It's arguably an unfair comparison because everything to the south of Santa Barbara is ocean, and there's mountains/national forest to the north, both of which are arguably different from what people think when you say "rural" (demographics notwithstanding).

I'll cop to having never lived in SW Indiana and while I did live in Indiana, I rarely made it past Holiday World to the south-west. There is probably also some bias, because Evansville is a rather large city for Indiana (3rd most populous), but Santa Barbara isn't so much for California.

I will also admit that my girlfriend at the time I relocated wouldn't move to Santa Barbara because there were too many people (she also felt that way about Fort Wayne; not sure if she had any thoughts about Evansville).

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#58

Post by Eisenstein »

willcipriano wrote: post #54
tehwebguy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if we defund the police and I get burgled who am I supposed to call when I want someone to show up eight hours later, shoot my dog, and tell me there’s nothing they can do to help? (Apologies for not just linking to the evergreen tweet, couldn’t find it)

Let me guess, they live in a major city led mostly by people who love NPR?

I'd love to see you try and use valid rhetoric to make a point.

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#59

Post by ROTMetro »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #36
daniel-cussen wrote: post #26

So i'm in favor of police going back to the basics, good old-fashioned detective work. The forensics are not what they're cracked up to be, there's very little verifiability n verification, too easy for the forensics lab to lie through their teeth or contaminate the scene of the crime. Like when the Duke Lacross players had to hire a very expensive lawyer to do the messy work of proving evidence actually traced back…

It's not enough for the police to discover (to their own satisfaction) who committed a crime. The point is to prosecute the offender or otherwise resolve it in a way that protects the public. "Old-fashioned detective work" doesn't help with that at all. What does it turn up? Eyewitnesses? About the worst evidence possible, on par with dreams and reading tea leaves. Sometimes it bullies someone into perjury. That's no…

The courts routinely allow the chain of custody to be a mess and when you challenge they respond with 'good faith'. Go search Lexus/Nexus for 'good faith' and find that 'chain of custody' really isn't a requirement because really who needs anything more than 'good faith'?

Lots of 'forensic science' has been found to either be garbage or complete subjective and results dependant on the person doing the 'science'. Some of that is still allowed in court because our court is based on precedent and if it was allowed before you as the accused have to fight precedent and prove why it should not longer be allowed (even though everyone accepts it has been disproven outside of court). Lie detector tests while not allowed to be a lone factor for conviction are still routinely used and required by the courts, especially as conditions of supervised release(parole/probation) and are administered at the supervised persons expense (court mandated and $280 a pop for pseudoscience that can get you hemmed up).

Re: An Indiana police department has been using Clearview AI for a year

#60

Post by Eisenstein »

willcipriano wrote: post #50
Eisenstein wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you operate using anything besides fallacies?

> no evidence that greater police budgets lead to increases in homicide clearance rates (or equivalently, lower police budgets decrease homicide clearance rates). No evidence. The experts are clear, police funding doesn't have anything to do with murder clearance rates. I mean that's super counter intuitive, I'd think the more interviews you do, the more forensics you have done, the more likely you are to solve the c…

Can you actually make an argument? Being dismissive and insinuating things might be substantive to you, but I prefer if you actually say what you mean and back it with evidence.
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