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Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

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Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#51

Post by ghaff »

throw-way-124 wrote: post #25

I'm afraid that this is a trend that is only going to accelerate in the new remote-first world that is now the reality for software engineering. Sure, some companies mint money and will always pay a premium for top talent. But for a mature product not bringing in huge amounts of revenue, why pay someone to work remotely in the US (especially in the bay area) versus paying someone a third of that salary in Europe?

Wages are sticky on the downside. But yes over time—assuming a lot of remote work—why would I want to pay someone a premium to live in a high cost area like the Bay or Manhattan any more than to live somewhere like Aspen.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#52

Post by scrollaway »

ghaff wrote: post #26
arcbyte wrote: post #21

There's a massive population of software developers that don't care about software, don't have a passion for the problem solving, don't feel accomplishment when they ship something. They just got into the business because of the money and the hype. These people will never amount to much and will cost companies lots of opportunity cost money. It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay p…

Oh the horror. Someone might work a job because they need money to eat even though they’re not deeply passionate about it.

There was a thread on Reddit yesterday asking what you would do if you didn’t have to think about money tomorrow. Like half the top posts were some version of “quit my job”.

This part of society is really broken. “I wish I didn’t have to deal with this thing taking up half of my life” isn’t a thing the majority of people should have to feel.

I don’t really have a point. Sorry.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#53

Post by neilv »

arcbyte wrote: post #21

There's a massive population of software developers that don't care about software, don't have a passion for the problem solving, don't feel accomplishment when they ship something. They just got into the business because of the money and the hype. These people will never amount to much and will cost companies lots of opportunity cost money. It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay p…

> But for the people who actually love shipping products to people, there will always be money and they will always be in demand.

> The only problem is you can't find them reliably through the front door application process [...]

Do they get found reliably enough in any manner, that there will always be money for them?

Were hiring managers and interviewers onboard with this theory, would they able to recognize such a person (amidst all the people projecting that because it quickly becomes standard interview advice to project that).

Is the market really for them, if they're indistinguishable?

(I'm imagining "In STAR format, tell me about a time that you loved shipping product to people, totally speaking candidly and off-the-cuff, not a rehearsed ritual answer recommended by prep materials, I'm sure." Or "I had to dock you points on your Leetcoding assessment because you didn't smile while you capped the whiteboard marker, which our hiring data science team says predicts that you don't love shipping solutions.")

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#54

Post by dangus »

bergeoisie wrote: post #3

The passive voice around laying off employees is always so gross. It didn't magically require you lay off those employees. Someone in your C-suite decided. Own it.

> In most cases, this package includes 16 weeks of salary, up to one year of health insurance coverage, and a performance bonus, paid pro-rata as if the year-end performance targets have already been achieved.

Layoffs are amazing. Every layoff I’ve experienced has been a financial gain and reduction in my total workload. That’s the whole point of severance packages: to keep employees happy enough to not sue.

And let me tell you, getting laid off is one of my favorite things.

As long as my check clears, corporate PR can say whatever nonsense they want, nobody’s really listening to them anyway.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#55

Post by HWR_14 »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #43
isykt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was an acquisition, not a merger, but if we misquote your mother a bit to fit this situation: YouTube?

YouTube’s algorithm routinely drives people to more and more extreme content and is designed to be as addictive as possible so that users don’t leave. A lot of this is the result of Google’s acquiring them. I’m curious how you think it’s better. Let me also be clear that it’s not like it was squeaky clean and friendly prior. But to say it has improved since the acquisition…I’m having a hard time seeing that.

The acquisition by Google happened 18 months into YouTubes existence. It's been 18 years since then. I don't know if you really recall what a site was like 18 years ago.

Besides that, what Google provided was hosting infrastructure and legal protection. Otherwise they would have been sued into nothing and couldn't have afforded to serve video.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#56

Post by iampims »

yodsanklai wrote: post #50
emptysongglass wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.

> This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages In some European countries, conditions are more favorable to workers, and this can be reflected in the wages as well. For instance, an employee in France will enjoy 35 weeks of holiday per year (not including public holidays), and also stronger protections regarding layoffs. This is somewhat expected that wages are also lower. EDIT: 35 days , not weeks.

You possibly meant 35 days per year.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#57

Post by tebbers »

geswit2x wrote: post #38
throw-way-124 wrote: post #25

I'm afraid that this is a trend that is only going to accelerate in the new remote-first world that is now the reality for software engineering. Sure, some companies mint money and will always pay a premium for top talent. But for a mature product not bringing in huge amounts of revenue, why pay someone to work remotely in the US (especially in the bay area) versus paying someone a third of that salary in Europe?

I'm afraid that "hell for some will be heaven for others." Haven't you stopped to think that many people in Europe will be glad about this? And it will bring development to places that would otherwise be unfeasible. Why is liberalism only good when it benefits us?

I’m not sure they’re saying it’s a bad thing? Just a thing that is happening.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#58

Post by [deleted] »

yodsanklai wrote: post #50
emptysongglass wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.

> This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages In some European countries, conditions are more favorable to workers, and this can be reflected in the wages as well. For instance, an employee in France will enjoy 35 weeks of holiday per year (not including public holidays), and also stronger protections regarding layoffs. This is somewhat expected that wages are also lower. EDIT: 35 days , not weeks.

[deleted]

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#59

Post by dasil003 »

ghaff wrote: post #26
arcbyte wrote: post #21

There's a massive population of software developers that don't care about software, don't have a passion for the problem solving, don't feel accomplishment when they ship something. They just got into the business because of the money and the hype. These people will never amount to much and will cost companies lots of opportunity cost money. It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay p…

Oh the horror. Someone might work a job because they need money to eat even though they’re not deeply passionate about it.

I dislike the word “passionate” in this context too. You don’t have to be in love with programming, but there definitely are qualities of curiosity, tenacity and pride of workmanship that are very important to high performing software teams.

Re: Moving the Evernote center of operations to Europe

#60

Post by ghaff »

HWR_14 wrote: post #55
Forgeties79 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube’s algorithm routinely drives people to more and more extreme content and is designed to be as addictive as possible so that users don’t leave. A lot of this is the result of Google’s acquiring them. I’m curious how you think it’s better. Let me also be clear that it’s not like it was squeaky clean and friendly prior. But to say it has improved since the acquisition…I’m having a hard time seeing that.

The acquisition by Google happened 18 months into YouTubes existence. It's been 18 years since then. I don't know if you really recall what a site was like 18 years ago. Besides that, what Google provided was hosting infrastructure and legal protection. Otherwise they would have been sued into nothing and couldn't have afforded to serve video.

Early on YouTube was basically a repository of commercial copyrighted material. Widespread home video was not really a big thing at the time.
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