Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#51

Post by cubefox » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #21

didntcheck wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels to me that the Overton window shifted rapidly (and arguably inverted) in the late 2010s. I remember this speech being posted and praised in forums and among people who would now consider it a harmful "dogwhistle". And I concur with the generational divide. As a mid-90s birth I've often found myself defending these principles towards younger people, and have done so by pointing out how the left used to suppor…

They came into politics after the "skeptical/free inquiry left" had been replaced by the "public safety" left I agree (as a person who didn't use to feel embarrassed to describe himself as a man of the left), though I think there was a similar move from class to identity politics during the same period. Much of the moral decline of the left of the recent period can probably be traced to (white) middle class dominance…

Here is another interesting theory why the free speech was pushed back so much:

https://www.richardhanania.com/p/womens-tears-win-in-the-mar...

In short, women gained much more influence in academia and other positions, and they are significantly less supportive of free speech than men. The theory is that this resulted in a feminization of political discourse.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#52

Post by karaterobot » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

dmbche wrote: post #19

indy wrote: post #8

There seems to be a generational divide on this topic. A lot of younger people seem to be fine with restrictions on free speech, often under the guise of various progressive causes

Any examples come to mind? I feel most people are pretty free to voice their thoughts

Here ya go, I found one.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/08/30/more-so-t...

To be fair, I had to check out a few polling websites to find a study that said anything except that the vast majority of Americans support free speech.

But, to be extra fair, most studies did not distinguish older versus younger Americans either.

It's also worth noting that the difference between adults and teenagers isn't enormous, but it is significant.

And this doesn't show changes over time. I'd say it's more meaningful if teenagers used to be more strongly in favor of free speech, and suddenly weren't. But, we don't know that from this article.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#53

Post by spondylosaurus » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

rightbyte wrote: post #24

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #13

Defending free speech without going at all into the nuances of the matter is intellectually extremely lazy at best and virtue signalling to the alt right crowd at worst. And the real bummer is that it's basically never interesting.

Maybe it is a worrying symptom that you associate free speech advocacy with the 'alt right'?

The current debacle with Twitter's (lack of) moderation and "free speech absolutism" is one reason you might make an association between the far/alt-right and free speech* advocacy. All the Nazis who got banned under previous leadership came crawling back almost immediately, and a lot of people who are part of a marginalized groups prone to online vitriol bounced in turn.

*Despite the "free speech" language used in the Twitter conversation, I think free speech is the wrong term to use here anyway since Twitter is a private platform, and private platforms are free to enforce their ToS and moderate accordingly... but it's the term that proliferates so I'll use it regardless.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#54

Post by throw0101b » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #45

throw0101b wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What books were banned by "the left"? Not banning but altering would be one form of censorship, e.g., "Roald Dahl books rewritten to remove language deemed offensive": * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-boo... "Why I Decided to Update the Language in Ursula K. Le Guin’s Children’s Books": * https://lithub.com/why-i-decided-to-update-the-language-in-u... "D&D: WotC’s New Batch Of Errata Remov…

Weren’t all of those changes done willingly by the publishers/copyright holders of those works?

Maybe, maybe not; it's hard to tell: how many folks are willing to stake their livelihood on saying "no" to a potential mob of progressives that will 'cancel' them? Saying to them "what is written is written; make your own (new) stories with the words you want".

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#55

Post by bondarchuk » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #43

rightbyte wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it is a worrying symptom that you associate free speech advocacy with the 'alt right'?

I don't see how it would be worrying. The alt right are basically the only major suppressed group in the Western world at the moment, and I have no problem with that. Even they are not silenced by the government, so even their free speech is being protected. However, people generally don't like what they say, and want to silence or ignore them - without government involvement. Of course free speech would be extremely…

>Of course free speech would be extremely important in countries like China or North Korea, but we don't really have access or impact to those countries.

So you think countries without free speech would benefit from free speech, but you don't think countries with free speech would be harmed by reducing free speech? That seems quite shortsighted to me.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#56

Post by mellosouls » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

_a_a_a_ wrote: post #36

mellosouls wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was commenting on "restrictions on speech", of which book banning is a historically symbolic example but less relevant in the modern age. In the West the left has dominated restricting speech.

Like the famously left-wing Nazi's bookburning?

"of which book banning is a historically symbolic example"

so yes, that's why I used the word "historically" and...

"(it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era)"

...noted the dominance of the right in previous decades.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#57

Post by nsajko » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

indy wrote: post #33

dmbche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any examples come to mind? I feel most people are pretty free to voice their thoughts

(At the risk of having my comment turn gray) The entire concept of "hate speech", the concept of "dead naming", anyone who thinks "words are violence" and therefore retaliation with physical violence is justified. These are all forms of attack upon free speech and there have been instances of these in universities for the past decade.

I agree that "dead naming" and other LGBT-related concepts are anti-intellectual, but it's not clear that any of your examples are at all related to free speech. A part of the problem is that "free speech" is mostly a buzzword, having no clear definition or meaning, except through case law.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#58

Post by LeafItAlone » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #29

dmbche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any examples come to mind? I feel most people are pretty free to voice their thoughts

After years of people being genuinely damaged in their careers and reputation it is disappointing that these disingenuous questions ("sealioning") are still asked in threads like these. Here's a start for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=cancel+culture+examples

Is “cancel culture” itself just not another form of free speech?

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#59

Post by cubefox » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

dmbche wrote: post #20

mellosouls wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. Sure, the right has also been up to its old tricks in tired corners (it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era), but lets be realistic about who the modern problem is mainly with in the West or we won't solve it.

What books were banned by "the left"?

Free speech is not just about not banning books. Things like cancel culture and social media censorship are mainly left-wing phenomena.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#60

Post by karmakurtisaani » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

bondarchuk wrote: post #55

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it would be worrying. The alt right are basically the only major suppressed group in the Western world at the moment, and I have no problem with that. Even they are not silenced by the government, so even their free speech is being protected. However, people generally don't like what they say, and want to silence or ignore them - without government involvement. Of course free speech would be extremely…

> Of course free speech would be extremely important in countries like China or North Korea, but we don't really have access or impact to those countries. So you think countries without free speech would benefit from free speech, but you don't think countries with free speech would be harmed by reducing free speech? That seems quite shortsighted to me.

This is actually not at all what I'm saying, but I can see why it would seem so.

I don't see any reduction in free speech in sight for us in the West, and would certainly not advocate for that either. All I'm saying that we have practically no problem with free speech, and implying so or advocating for it is rather boring or outright playing to the hand of the alt right.