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Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

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Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#21

Post by mellosouls »

didntcheck wrote: post #16
indy wrote: post #8

There seems to be a generational divide on this topic. A lot of younger people seem to be fine with restrictions on free speech, often under the guise of various progressive causes

It feels to me that the Overton window shifted rapidly (and arguably inverted) in the late 2010s. I remember this speech being posted and praised in forums and among people who would now consider it a harmful "dogwhistle". And I concur with the generational divide. As a mid-90s birth I've often found myself defending these principles towards younger people, and have done so by pointing out how the left used to suppor…

They came into politics after the "skeptical/free inquiry left" had been replaced by the "public safety" left

I agree (as a person who didn't use to feel embarrassed to describe himself as a man of the left), though I think there was a similar move from class to identity politics during the same period.

Much of the moral decline of the left of the recent period can probably be traced to (white) middle class dominance through academia and social media, which has been scaled by the web and led by the young who dominate the demographic in both cases.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#22

Post by jl6 »

fugalfervor wrote: post #10
indy wrote: post #8

There seems to be a generational divide on this topic. A lot of younger people seem to be fine with restrictions on free speech, often under the guise of various progressive causes

The book banning and restrictions on content in classrooms in Florida are further examples of people being fine with restrictions on speech. At this point it's pretty disingenuous to lay the blame entirely on the left, or the young.

Different debate. Those authors were not restricted from publishing their books. The Florida issue is about what kind of material is suitable for children to access.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#23

Post by [deleted] »

cubefox wrote: post #12

This is a great speech, and I recommend anyone to listen to the whole thing. An aspect it doesn't touch on is that today, free speech is often legally constrained by social networking sites, when they are, all too quickly, label certain things as "misinformation" or "hate speech", censor it, and ban the author. Facebook is particularly brutal in this regard. The problem with saying that something is "misinformation"…

[deleted]

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#24

Post by rightbyte »

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #13

Defending free speech without going at all into the nuances of the matter is intellectually extremely lazy at best and virtue signalling to the alt right crowd at worst. And the real bummer is that it's basically never interesting.

Maybe it is a worrying symptom that you associate free speech advocacy with the 'alt right'?

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#25

Post by jwalton »

diego_moita wrote: post #3

I believe that an intelligent person should be able to hold two conflicting perceptions at the same time. Therefore, I understand and accept that free speech is a foundation for a civilized life, that there should be no restraints on free speech. But, I also acknowledge that free speech isn't so free at all. For a long time and in many places in the world there are minorities without the right to speech. And the barr…

By way of counter argument, I would point out that in almost any country on earth where free speech is not enshrined as it is in western democracies, minorities fare far worse. I don’t want free speech to help justify oppression, I want free speech so that the oppressed can have a voice.

> even more with the rise of anti-immigrant right-wing parties

If you give the government the power to regulate speech, and one of those right wing parties comes to power, what do you think they’ll use that power for? The only way to guard against this is not not give them that power in the first place.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#26

Post by mellosouls »

dmbche wrote: post #20
mellosouls wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. Sure, the right has also been up to its old tricks in tired corners (it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era), but lets be realistic about who the modern problem is mainly with in the West or we won't solve it.

What books were banned by "the left"?

I was commenting on "restrictions on speech", of which book banning is a historically symbolic example but less relevant in the modern age.

In the West the left has dominated restricting speech.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#27

Post by diego_moita »

redeeman wrote: post #6
diego_moita wrote: post #3

I believe that an intelligent person should be able to hold two conflicting perceptions at the same time. Therefore, I understand and accept that free speech is a foundation for a civilized life, that there should be no restraints on free speech. But, I also acknowledge that free speech isn't so free at all. For a long time and in many places in the world there are minorities without the right to speech. And the barr…

> When an European soccer fan shouts "monkey" to a dark skinned African or Latin American player of an adversary team there is a lot more than free speech at play are you saying the african soccer player is lower in rank than some idiot fan? im also sure barack obama was much in a bad power dynamic to people that call him monkey president? those guys have all the institutional power, ey?

What I am saying is "this is a complex issue that should be deeply understood before rushing to easy ideological solutions".

The problem is that, like my children doing math, no one wants to understand problems. Ideological solutions that fit in memes are much easier.

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#29

Post by mellosouls »

dmbche wrote: post #19
indy wrote: post #8

There seems to be a generational divide on this topic. A lot of younger people seem to be fine with restrictions on free speech, often under the guise of various progressive causes

Any examples come to mind? I feel most people are pretty free to voice their thoughts

After years of people being genuinely damaged in their careers and reputation it is disappointing that these disingenuous questions ("sealioning") are still asked in threads like these.

Here's a start for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=cancel+culture+examples

Re: Rowan Atkinson on free speech (2012) [video]

#30

Post by diego_moita »

jwalton wrote: post #25
diego_moita wrote: post #3

I believe that an intelligent person should be able to hold two conflicting perceptions at the same time. Therefore, I understand and accept that free speech is a foundation for a civilized life, that there should be no restraints on free speech. But, I also acknowledge that free speech isn't so free at all. For a long time and in many places in the world there are minorities without the right to speech. And the barr…

By way of counter argument, I would point out that in almost any country on earth where free speech is not enshrined as it is in western democracies, minorities fare far worse. I don’t want free speech to help justify oppression, I want free speech so that the oppressed can have a voice. > even more with the rise of anti-immigrant right-wing parties If you give the government the power to regulate speech, and one of…

Your first point is very good, thank you. I acknowledge and respect it.

The second one is way more complex. There is a big discussion on classic liberal circles about that. Karl Popper, the very own champion of open societies, was strongly against giving free speech to the enemies of freedom.

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