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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#51

Post by spiderfarmer »

Joeri wrote: post #22
waihtis wrote: post #5

The EU keep pumping out these absolutely ridiculous green policies that have crippling effects locally. Recently they brought out a new energy efficiency directive which could cause up to 50% (!) of Finnish flats & houses to require sizeable renovations. Brussels have been very effective in transforming a useful economic union into a centrally managed dystopian nightmare that a lot of people will soon be willing to b…

Most of the criticism of those policies is false or misleading. You always need to be careful to research the actual policy instead of the media soundbite as the two usually diverge quite a bit. There are perverse incentives at work. When the EU does something right the national politicians usually take credit (when they convert a EU directive to local law), and when a national politician is struggling with a local p…

Balkenende warned the EU the Natura 2000 guidelines would bring all economic activity in The Netherlands to a halt. Because there is no way we will reach the goals that were stated there. The EU commissioner basically laughed and told him to deal with it.

Lots of politicians saw the writing on the wall. Nobody had the balls to tackle the real issue and change the guidelines at the EU level. It will be interesting to see how this will pan out.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#52

Post by cornholio »

defrost wrote: post #21
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Let them eat datacentres indeed. The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient? Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

This is a moot point for about 60 years. Europe, like the US, have massive agricultural overproductions which distort the world markets, due to subsidies. Most of the disastrous monocultures are used to feed bovines, a very inefficient source of protein for the human diet.

Basically, it's a lifestyle and politico-economic choice, not a need.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#53

Post by shjake »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #40
mtts wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that’s just setting a low bar. Dutch agriculture is anything but a bucolic idyl, instead consisting of very large industrial operations owned by an ever decreasing number of companies that produce vast amounts of food for export using imported feed and plowing the manure that remains, truly stupendous amounts, into the soil thereby rendering it effectively dead. Large tracts of the province of Drente, formerly…

It would be a lot more ecologically disastrous to move operations to less suitable areas.

Wouldn’t most other places in Europe be much more suitable though just because of lower population density (and energy prices in some cases)?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#54

Post by shjake »

Dalewyn wrote: post #23
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

[flagged]

It an objectively free market capitalist view. I don’t know if that’s the same as woke..

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#55

Post by gattilorenz »

gpvos wrote: post #44
MonaroVXR wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch man, there is very large one near supermarket... Adres: Pampusweg 13, 1398PT Muiden, Noord-Holland

It's basically the only one in the country.

For very large values of one:

https://www.ah.nl/winkels?storeType=XL

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#56

Post by shjake »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #41
Dalewyn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s just plain arrogance, bossing entire groups of people around.

So offering them enough money so that it would be profitable for them to close their farms is bossing around?

Using land for housing or (data center for that matter) is just more efficient most of the time.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#57

Post by spiderfarmer »

masklinn wrote: post #28
digitalengineer wrote: post #24

The datacenters are mostly air cooled but also use massive amounts of water when it gets warmer. Exactly during the times that f the year when citizens and farmers are called upon to use less water. How much? Independent studies showed up to 4 times more then Microsoft claimed. Furthermore the water they put back in the local lakes contains some unknown kind of chemical. So yeah I get why locals and farmers might be…

The farmers are mostly giant moaning hypocrites. They’re the cause of the nitrogen crisis.

No. The real issue is the fact that when Natura 2000 guidelines became a thing, we undemocratically decided on the wrong species to protect. And when we realized this would effectively kill all economic activity in NL, there was no way back.

Even when all farms disappear we will not reach the goals. And right now the emissions of farms are (likely) illegally exchanged for other polluting activity like airports.

We should have a hard think if it’s really necessary to ruin our country to protect species that are abundant in other countries.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#58

Post by Why_O_My »

mirekrusin wrote: post #36
Why_O_My wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 percent of dutch meat is exported, we can do with a whole lot less.

Exported doesn't mean throwing in the trash, somebody is using and depending on it.

I know this meat is still used ofcourse. But with a country as small as ours, there simply are better uses of the space for our country and people.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#59

Post by masklinn »

datadeft wrote: post #33
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

We let companies to get away pretty much anything. Tax evasion (funnily enough paying tax __after__ expenses), environmental damages and few more.

(farms are usually companies)

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#60

Post by shjake »

holoduke wrote: post #37
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Why are the Dutch angry with EU and Microsoft and not with their elected Dutch government officials who set up these legal tax dodging opportunities to attract such corporations in the first place? They made the rules, Microsoft (and other companies) are just following them.

Because these companies have no morals. They dont care if their foreign factory doesnt follow American laws regarding work safety and other regulations. As long as the local laws permits them they do anything what is possible. Only when things become public and affects their reputation things might change. Only then. Thats why we dont welcome them.

Don’t make your laws more lax than even the ones in America then? We’re talking about Holland here not some poor and corrupt developing country..

It’s no great secret than corporations are generally profit seeking and will try to utilize any “legal loophole” they can find. It would not be reasonable to expect them not to when the system they operate in strongly incentivize them to prioritize profit over anything else. I mean “nice corporations” will simply be outcompeted by the ruthless ones…

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