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Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

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Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#51

Post by vena »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #44
vena wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple produces their own hardware, and the various locked Android devices are not being locked down by Google.

>Apple produces their own hardware Samsung and Foxconn and a lot of other suppliers make the hardware. Apple does not own the factories.

Samsung is the factory contractor for the A5, Apple designed it and Apple owns it outright. Foxconn assembles Apple products and provides some off-the-shelf parts. Apple does not levy such licensing restrictions against another company's own product to run only Apple software.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#52

Post by Steko »

resnamen wrote: post #32
dangrossman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google doesn't make any requirements on the manufacturers to lock their devices down. But they do. Google has many requirements and if you don't meet them, you won't be licensed the Google apps. That's the same thing Microsoft is doing here. You can choose to make a tablet that doesn't meet their requirements, you just can't sell it with Windows if you do so. Microsoft isn't preventing anyone from making products o…

They don't expect manufacturers to lock down the devices. Their flagship devices, which are supposed to set the bar for other Android phones, are deliberately not locked down to set an example.

"They don't expect manufacturers to lock down the devices."

He's not saying they do. No one is saying they do. That is the very definition of a straw man argument.

Dan Grossman is saying Google has a host of other compliance requirements. Why does Microsoft compliance requirement X cross some terrible line that Google and Apple requirements W, Y and Z don't?

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#54

Post by recoiledsnake »

kenjackson wrote: post #47

First, tihs document is about HW Certification. You can ship an ARM-based system that doesn't follow these rules, just won't be certified by MS -- much like many Android devices aren't Google certified. Furthermore, MS actually bent over backwards on x86 and required for certification that the option to disable secure boot be provided (they could have been silent on this issue): "Enable/Disable Secure Boot. On non-AR…

Agreed on rest of the points, but Windows 8 on ARM is more like Windows Phone in the sense that you can't ship an ARM based system like you can with x86. You need a special license, there will be no OEM or user installable versions of Windows 8 ARM.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#55

Post by derekp7 »

X-Istence wrote: post #16
dangrossman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google doesn't make any requirements on the manufacturers to lock their devices down. But they do. Google has many requirements and if you don't meet them, you won't be licensed the Google apps. That's the same thing Microsoft is doing here. You can choose to make a tablet that doesn't meet their requirements, you just can't sell it with Windows if you do so. Microsoft isn't preventing anyone from making products o…

There is no requirement from Google to build a device that the customer can't change at will after they purchase it. The manufacturers themselves have locked the boot-loaders not at the will of Google.

Actually there is, sort of. The new Asus Transformer Prime comes with an encrypted signed boot loader. They will give you a tool to allow it to boot unsigned code, but according to Asus, this will cause you to lose the ability to view Google Videos (as per Google requirements).

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#57

Post by brudgers »

The article is a blog post about a blog post about a blog post.

The Windows 8 hardware certification requirements comprise three documents and more than 1000 pages. They are available here [warning license agreement required]:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/hh748188

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#58

Post by brudgers »

kenjackson wrote: post #47

First, tihs document is about HW Certification. You can ship an ARM-based system that doesn't follow these rules, just won't be certified by MS -- much like many Android devices aren't Google certified. Furthermore, MS actually bent over backwards on x86 and required for certification that the option to disable secure boot be provided (they could have been silent on this issue): "Enable/Disable Secure Boot. On non-AR…

It appears that ARM devices can fallover to legacy BIOS mode to support non UEFI OS's.

From page 109 of windows8-hardware-cert-requirements-system.pdf:

  System.Fundamentals.Firmware.UEFIDefaultBoot 

  Target Feature: System.Fundamentals.Firmware 

  Title:  All client systems must be able to boot into UEFI
   boot mode and attempt to boot into this 
   mode by default 

  Applicable OS Versions: 
    Windows 8 Client x86 
    Windows 8 Client x64 
    Windows 8 Client ARM 
    Windows 8 Server x64 
    Windows Server 2008 Release 2 x64 

  Description: 
  The System firmware must be able to achieve UEFI mode
  boot by default. Such a system may also 
  support fallback to legacy BIOS mode boot for deploying 
  OS images which do not support UEFI, if the 
  user explicitly selects that option in the pre-boot UEFI BIOS menu. 
  This requirement is If Implemented for Server systems and applies
   only if a Server system is UEFI capable.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#59

Post by wonderercat »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #44
vena wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple produces their own hardware, and the various locked Android devices are not being locked down by Google.

>Apple produces their own hardware Samsung and Foxconn and a lot of other suppliers make the hardware. Apple does not own the factories.

For the purposes of this argument, they do. Apple is the client; they buy the manufacturing.

Whereas with Microsoft, the factories are the clients of Microsoft OS's.

Re: Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices

#60

Post by TeHCrAzY »

cooldeal wrote: post #42
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to make Linux run on the hardware that runs their software? What is your stance on Nook Tablet, Kindle Fire etc.? I disapprove of Android vendors locking their bootloaders as well. However, this is an entirely different landscape. Microsoft's penetration on laptops and netbooks means that they have the ability to block out competing operating systems unless OEMs (that have to neg…

>Microsoft's penetration on laptops and netbooks means that they have the ability to block out competing operating systems ARM laptops and netbooks and PCs won't run x86 apps, so I fail to see how MS's penetration will allow them to block out competing operating systems. >Regardless, I even granted that there isn't a business reason for them to be friendly to competing operation systems, it's just disappointing to se…

Not to mention the XBox.
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