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Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

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Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#51

Post by Dalewyn »

breezeitall wrote: post #36
jsnell wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask the users for their date of birth on signup, don't tell them that it will be used for age-gating features (to avoid incentivizing lying), and don't allow the date to be changed without some kind of age verification. Or you use the social graph to infer age: somebody who mainly plays with 10 year olds is probably also about 10. If they claim to be 20, require an id anyway. Non-gaming companies deal with this a…

So are we all forced to have a signup at the start to not get sued? Can't just have a mobile/browser game that tracks basic data?

It is federal law that taking any data from children under 13 requires prior authorization from the parents/guardian. If your code takes any data, you must verify the end user's age and, if they are underage, provide a way for the parents/guardian to contact you for giving authorization.

Yes, we all know kids lie when they see the age verification, but the presence of age verification moves the liability away from the developer/publisher and onto the parents/guardian of the underage kid.

Obligatory IANAL.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#52

Post by mardifoufs »

ThisNameNotUsed wrote: post #46
mardifoufs wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe this is exactly the same as those christian mothers, in the sense that it's "think of the children" hysteria from modern day puritans?

Quoted post unavailable.

I get what you are saying, but I was more talking about the weird "it's different when we do it" that I got from the comment I was replying to. It's weird to distance yourself from that "video games bad" (because it's been mocked to death) craze while using the same arguments and tactics.

As for voice chat, I guess it would make sense to put children and minors in age appropriate lobbies? That way they can just talk to each other.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#54

Post by zamadatix »

lkramer wrote: post #48
zamadatix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you verifying age? The "this is impossible"s are about it being accurate on age not the disabling of chat once you have an accurate age. The point being the law is useless theatre that does nothing to prevent kids from using it but annoys everyone else anyways.

There are multiple ways, but considering they own a company that is supposed to do this as a service, failing to do this for the own biggest game seems a bit weak. https://www.superawesome.com/

SuperAwesome KWS is another click button "verification" solution. Being interested in selling ads in a COPPA compliant-enough way isn't the same thing as making COPPA verification accurate/more than theatre.

Fortnite was too blatant with it by doing this with all accounts including ones that had entered young ages but that doesn't mean other apps that follow the entered age are accurate it just means they aren't likely to get fined. Which sure - still fine Fortnite. Knowingly breaking a law because you want to doesn't make you exempt from the law even if the law is useless in practice.

I'd personally like if the law could be made into something more meaningfully verifiable I just don't think there is a reasonable way to do so. E.g. the UK has an opt-in requirement at the ISP level for porn access because "I am 18+" buttons weren't actually doing anything but making a legal bypass. Yet it's both a ridiculously bad solution and still easily worked around anyways.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#55

Post by 72deluxe »

ThisNameNotUsed wrote: post #44
sillysaurusx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how many people in this thread want to run to the government to solve the problem. It’s kind of like that musk thread from yesterday where a bunch of people showed up to defend the policy of banning links. If someone makes a rule, there will always be someone else who thinks it’s a good idea. As someone who grew up on roleplaying games when I was about 13, and had lots of exposure to the adult side of life, I…

13 is nothing like 10, or 8. I have nephews playing on their own at 4.

I do not have children but I could not imagine my parents leaving me with unfettered access to a TV at age 4. If the Internet had been around, they certainly wouldn't have given me an internet-enabled device and left me by myself.

How is playing games online where you can communicate with random people across the world without any sort of parental supervision possibly a good idea?? And why is it someone else's problem?

I don't mean this rudely, but how about actually doing some parenting?

I used to work with a guy who said the schools should be doing more to make children behave better, as if he was somehow absolved of any input. Absolutely baffling.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#57

Post by zx10rse »

Wait until FTC find about Diablo Immortal.

Really a good start, but if they are serious about doing something they should start looking at other companies too, and put in place big fines if you continue to implement such patterns in your games.

Don't even get me started on loot boxes and their gambling patterns, I have no sympathy for companies using such practices, and they deserve every single fine and a bit more.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#58

Post by ethanbond »

zamadatix wrote: post #38
ethanbond wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FTC's statement specifically says the issue is that it was on by default. Not that it could possibly be turned on by a child. > The FTC’s $275 million proposed settlement with Epic Games, owner of Fortnite, alleges the company violated the law by collecting personal information from kids under 13 without parental consent and by enabling voice and text chat by default

The law is that https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/10/... Even if "by default" was the law though that would seem to make things even more theatrical and less pragmatic anyways.

Right but could it possibly be the case that FTC knows there's no reasonable way to validate ages, and they'd not go after companies for "affirm you're not at least not set the default to be in clear violation of the law?

You know, alcohol, weed, and porn companies have managed just fine with user affirmations.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#59

Post by richbell »

zx10rse wrote: post #57

Wait until FTC find about Diablo Immortal. Really a good start, but if they are serious about doing something they should start looking at other companies too, and put in place big fines if you continue to implement such patterns in your games. Don't even get me started on loot boxes and their gambling patterns, I have no sympathy for companies using such practices, and they deserve every single fine and a bit more.

> Wait until FTC find about Diablo Immortal.

While I'm sure it's been discussed to death already, if anyone isn't familiar with the predatory design of Diablo Immortal I'd recommend this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o17lBUZgjTs

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#60

Post by HDThoreaun »

devmor wrote: post #40
ethanbond wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just set it to off by default for everyone? That seems like a pretty pragmatic and very non-theatrical improvement. Of course it will have to contend with the theatrics of gamers whining about the immense hassle of a one-time settings change to enable voice chat.

"Off by default" is also a great way to make sure your feature is not used by the vast majority of people. It could easily lead to user attrition for new players looking for a social experience as well.

Maybe getting social experiences from places other than fortnite is a good thing?
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