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Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

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Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#51
post #45

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an Indian lawyer, but if Razorpay received a Section 91 order ( https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/ ) they wouldn't have much choice on turning over any records. It looks to be the rough equivalent of third party doctrine in the US (which is also horrible). It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police station". Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed t…

Razorpay did receive a Section 91 order according to their tweet: https://twitter.com/Razorpay/status/1544313411621646338

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#52

While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and sometimes just for liking a social media post(1) Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of…

And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just "pro-Westnern"?

> billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe?

New York Times:

“India is valued the world over for a great many things, but for three over others: the Taj Mahal, Mahatma Gandhi and India’s electoral democracy.” It is the 17th general election in India, being held in seven phases over 38 days. Nine hundred million Indians are registered to vote! Around 70 percent are expected to vote. The voting age in India is 18, and 15 million are voting for the first time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/india-elections.h...

USA + European Union = ~750M population (not voters)

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is weird. It's not really called authoritarian (rankings don't classify it as such), but there are many similar stories of government dysfunction and overreach. Maybe someone else has a word for them?

Heres the interesting thing though. A majority of Indian citizens would agree with this overreach. If the majority agrees with heavy handed tactics and they are enforced by elected officials with at least reasonably fair elections then is it right to call it an autocracy? I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.

Tyranny of the majority.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#54
post #36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lack of rule of law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law

Not quite. Just that the ruler is the law.

That's contrary to the definition of the term. If the ruler is the law, then there is no rule of law.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is weird. It's not really called authoritarian (rankings don't classify it as such), but there are many similar stories of government dysfunction and overreach. Maybe someone else has a word for them?

Heres the interesting thing though. A majority of Indian citizens would agree with this overreach. If the majority agrees with heavy handed tactics and they are enforced by elected officials with at least reasonably fair elections then is it right to call it an autocracy? I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.

The phenomenon what you mention is called "Tyranny of Majority", great many thinkers have indeed weighed on this.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heres the interesting thing though. A majority of Indian citizens would agree with this overreach. If the majority agrees with heavy handed tactics and they are enforced by elected officials with at least reasonably fair elections then is it right to call it an autocracy? I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.

Quoted post unavailable.

Not sure what you’re referring to. A majority certainly does not approve of overturning Roe, quite the opposite.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#58

While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and sometimes just for liking a social media post(1) Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of…

No post body was provided.

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#59
post #5

It's concerning that YC is funding companies that are so aligned with BJP bigotry that they comply with invasion of privacy requests without a court order.

I give zero sympathy or support to BJP and its destruction of India's democratic institutions.

Yet, I can't agree with your comment.

First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at least openly.

One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry.

Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.: PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see, Razorpay is "neutral".

Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies.

Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws. Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand over any information that's asked. I see this as an undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system. Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under government scrutiny some day.

Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced them to disclose transactions.

A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!

Re: Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order

#60

While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and sometimes just for liking a social media post(1) Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of…

The laws in India are quite similar to US. Unfortunately, current practice and interpretation is far from what was envisioned in the constitution.
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