Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric • Hacker News Board

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#51

Post by yellowapple » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

wildmanx wrote: post #20

burlesona wrote: post #6

California is next to the ocean, so if we really wanted to secure the water supply we have technological answers available. Nuclear desalination has been used at scale across the globe for decades, and it's not hard to imagine a less centralized solution powered by solar or wind. https://www.iaea.org/topics/non-electric-applications/nuclea...

Oh the typical techie solution to environmental problems. We can solve this with tech! Wait until the aquifers under North America run dry. That's where most irrigation pump up their ground water from. A few dry rivers and smaller lakes are nothing compared to what's going to happen. Forget your desalination plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aquifers_in_the_United... And it's entirely predictable. In fact…

> Oh the typical techie solution to environmental problems. We can solve this with tech!

In this case, yes, we literally can solve this with tech. We don't have to wait for the aquifers to dry up, because California has a ludicrously long coastline just begging for desalination plants up the wazoo.

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#52

Post by Consultant32452 » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #12

agomez314 wrote: post #3

entire regions being deserted is not a new thing (see mayan civilization). it's possible we'll see the cities of southern California (San Diego, Los Angeles) as remnants of an ancient culture in a few hundred years, left intact by the scorching heat and desert.

Climate doomerism is some seriously fascinating stuff. Both of those places are far more temperate than hundreds of cities around the world.

The perfect theme song for reading the internet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5PLf-2FYIM

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#53

Post by codefreeordie » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

beambot wrote: post #28

Quick Google stats: There are 13M households in California. Average household consumes 0.5-1.0 acre-feet of water per year. It costs $419 per acre-foot for desalination. California has a discretionary budget surplus of $49B. Thus: It would cost $2.7B-$5.4B per year to provide desalination-based water to all Californians. With the current budget surplus, we could provide 100% of California's living water needs for 10-…

California just decided not to build desalination -- the decision was unanimous from the water board responsible for approving projects -- on the ground that more water isn't needed

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#54

Post by bequanna » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

kpopguru wrote: post #10

agomez314 wrote: post #3

entire regions being deserted is not a new thing (see mayan civilization). it's possible we'll see the cities of southern California (San Diego, Los Angeles) as remnants of an ancient culture in a few hundred years, left intact by the scorching heat and desert.

And what about places like phoenix and Vegas?

Presumably their water sources are more sustainable. Or, at least much more sustainable than LA or Central Valley.

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#55

Post by s0rce » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #39

burlesona wrote: post #6

California is next to the ocean, so if we really wanted to secure the water supply we have technological answers available. Nuclear desalination has been used at scale across the globe for decades, and it's not hard to imagine a less centralized solution powered by solar or wind. https://www.iaea.org/topics/non-electric-applications/nuclea...

Or we could tell the vineyards we need water not wine. Wine makes substantial money for the state but it doesn't make sense if nobody can live in it. Or the almond guys, or other types of unsustainable agriculture in the state.

Beef, pasture and animal feed crops are tremendous "wastes" of water. Much of it is also exported.

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#56

Post by lrem » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #41

dntrkv wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need desal, we have plenty of water for people to live here. The vast majority of water goes to agriculture. If we were just a bit more selective in what we farmed, we could reduce our water usage by a significant amount.

"We have enough water, we just need to stop growing food and starve instead." I mean, yes, but no. We could cut on beef, I agree with that, but then the electorate will be enraged at their expensive steaks.

Dryer places don't starve. But they don't export almonds.

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#57

Post by noah_buddy » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

wildmanx wrote: post #20

burlesona wrote: post #6

California is next to the ocean, so if we really wanted to secure the water supply we have technological answers available. Nuclear desalination has been used at scale across the globe for decades, and it's not hard to imagine a less centralized solution powered by solar or wind. https://www.iaea.org/topics/non-electric-applications/nuclea...

Oh the typical techie solution to environmental problems. We can solve this with tech! Wait until the aquifers under North America run dry. That's where most irrigation pump up their ground water from. A few dry rivers and smaller lakes are nothing compared to what's going to happen. Forget your desalination plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aquifers_in_the_United... And it's entirely predictable. In fact…

I would suggest you take a look at history, you would see that humanity’s story is one of exploiting resources till collapse

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#58

Post by beambot » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #49

beambot wrote: post #28

Quick Google stats: There are 13M households in California. Average household consumes 0.5-1.0 acre-feet of water per year. It costs $419 per acre-foot for desalination. California has a discretionary budget surplus of $49B. Thus: It would cost $2.7B-$5.4B per year to provide desalination-based water to all Californians. With the current budget surplus, we could provide 100% of California's living water needs for 10-…

I disagree that we should build desalination, even if we can "afford" it. There are agricultural users of water paying astronomically lower prices due to long standing water rights. It would almost certainly be cheaper to pay them to conserve (grow less of water-wasting crops, leave fields fallow, or upgrade to more efficient drip irrigation). The urban water use is around 20%, making them pay billions for this 20% m…

Solutions that ensure access to a necessary element for all life are not mutually exclusive. The water rights (and disputes) date back centuries; waiting for the courts could easily result in calamity -- even if those rights are quintessentially & obviously a non-ideal "tragedy of the commons."

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#59

Post by thehappypm » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #45

beambot wrote: post #28

Quick Google stats: There are 13M households in California. Average household consumes 0.5-1.0 acre-feet of water per year. It costs $419 per acre-foot for desalination. California has a discretionary budget surplus of $49B. Thus: It would cost $2.7B-$5.4B per year to provide desalination-based water to all Californians. With the current budget surplus, we could provide 100% of California's living water needs for 10-…

And that doesn't even begin to factor in the revenue opportunities from scaling up desalination further for export to neighboring states (most of which are even more arid than California). I've said it before and I'll say it again: California food and (desalinated) water in exchange for Nevada electricity (be it solar, geothermal, or nuclear) would mutually benefit both states and produce one hell of an economic jugg…

Pumping water from the California coast to Nevada is not a good idea. You’re basically describing a hydro plant, in reverse, carrying expensive water.

Re: Extreme heat, drought will permanently scar California and its social fabric

#60

Post by s0rce » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #41

dntrkv wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need desal, we have plenty of water for people to live here. The vast majority of water goes to agriculture. If we were just a bit more selective in what we farmed, we could reduce our water usage by a significant amount.

"We have enough water, we just need to stop growing food and starve instead." I mean, yes, but no. We could cut on beef, I agree with that, but then the electorate will be enraged at their expensive steaks.

No, just stop growing stuff we can't eat or stuff we export. And then water more efficiently with drip. This is so wildly wrong. Alfalfa is useless.