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Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

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Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#51
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropbox took in $250 million cash for 6% of the company. Heroku took in $240 million cash for 100%.

And as soon as Dropbox becomes liquid, it will certainly be the biggest homerun.

Could DropBox just decide to say screw you to everyone and not be liquid? I don't think the founders would have a problem receiving a nice amt of salary every year, have something fulfulling to work on everyday, and not have to answer to a boss, whether it's a parent company or Wall Street... I mean, there's NO guarantee they will be liquid if the company succeeds, right?

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#52

A co-founder is also the minimum social proof. Find at least one person in the world who is willing to bet on you and your startup.

Yeah, right. You forget: That is easy in college, but actually much more difficult later in life when all your friends have jobs and family. In other words, works in some way as a nicely worded age discrimination. Not that it affects me, but getting older makes you more sensitive for these things ;)

I agree. You also can't just pick anyone as a co-founder. Not only is it hard to find entrepreneurial people, but also people with the right skill set to complement you, and the right rapport to work with on a daily basis. That's HARD to find.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allen and Woz both left early on. Allen was in a plane wreck and/or got cancer or some such? Woz was gone before Jobs was at Next, Pixar, or back at Apple. I'm sure Jobs had a mother, also, but as I wrote, and is clearly the case, Apple, that is, the currently successful company, was a one man show from Jobs. While Munger is a bright guy, my reading is as I wrote it: Berkshire is a Buffett show.

A cofounder is most critical a factor in the early stages of a business. Apple and Microsoft were already established companies to a larger degree when the cofounders left

Sure. Still, what I said is on target: Gates, Jobs, etc. did the big, huge growth just from their own brains. There's no good reason to believe that they could not have done all of the success, including the first days, essentially alone also.

Really, for the "early stages of a business", that is JUST what Jobs faced at Next, Pixar, and back at Apple. What he and Woz did for the Apple II was nearly irrelevant except it did leave Jobs with the cash from his sale of all his Apple stock except one shart. So, we're not talking the value of a cofounder but the value of a founder with cash!

And for Gates, as MS/DOS took off, Microsoft was just awash in cash. About then, Allen left. So, the real building of Microsoft was due to Gates and cash. It's not the least bit clear that Gates ever really needed Allen as a cofounder. Similarly for Jobs and Woz.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#54
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point here. How they parted does not matter much. What matters is that without the other they would have never made it to where they got.

You are just flatly refusing to pay any informed attention at all to history or to read what the heck I actually wrote. Take Gates: When Allen was still around, Microsoft was a still a small company IBM was still laughing at. Then Allen left. Gates, it was JUST Gates, went on to build Windows 3, Office, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT, IE, Windows Server, SQL Server, Windows XP, and more. Gates grew his fortune fr…

Without Woz apple would have never happened, because he designed their first flagship product. What Woz did back then is highly relevant because it was the thing that eventually enabled Jobs to start Next and buy Pixar.

Jobs and Woz to me are the ideal example of the sum being much greater than either part.

Without Paul Allen Microsoft as we know it would not have existed because he named Microsoft Microsoft.

Your insulting tone and capitals do not make you right, they're reminiscent of people raising their voice and making things personal just because they can't win an argument.

I read a bit in your comment history and this seems to be a recurring theme for you, it is almost as if you take this single founder thing personal. The way to prove that it works is to simply succeed. As a single founder myself I've been there, I've done the multiple-founder thing too (with mixed success). There are no guarantees, to pretend either way is a shoe-in is nonsense. But statistically speaking, and looking at things from the point of view of a guy or girl considering going it alone or from the point of view of an investor that has the choice to invest in a company founded by one or more people the statistics seem to point to more being the better choice. Exceptions will always happen. But the ones that you point to are not those exceptions.

We can't know anything about pasts and futures that didn't happen, but we can safely say that things that did happen and that were likely significant were at least as significant as anything that you think would have happened otherwise. Jobs, Wozniak, Gates and Allen would probably never have said what you just said, and that alone marks them as potentially more successful. How you interact with others is an important factor in your chances for success, and being able to give credit where credit is due is another.

I agree that you and I should not be involved in any business because we'd probably fight, and you are making that point very eloquently.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 25-year old knows that if his startup fails he can easily find a first (or new) job at Google etc two years later. That does not apply to 45+ year olds. The risk is much higher.

I don't get this, presumably by that point in their career they'd have a huge network of people they've worked with in the past and who would be eager to hire them ?

When you're at that point in your career you cost a lot more to hire and there are fewer positions, especially since it's usually better to promote an insider instead of hiring a buddy from outside the company.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point here. How they parted does not matter much. What matters is that without the other they would have never made it to where they got.

You are just flatly refusing to pay any informed attention at all to history or to read what the heck I actually wrote. Take Gates: When Allen was still around, Microsoft was a still a small company IBM was still laughing at. Then Allen left. Gates, it was JUST Gates, went on to build Windows 3, Office, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT, IE, Windows Server, SQL Server, Windows XP, and more. Gates grew his fortune fr…

No one is denying that Gates,Jobs and Buffett accomplished incredible feats. I'm just arguing that, at the beginning, each had a partner to help get things started. Woz created the Apple 1 and 2 which brought incredible financial success to Apple allowing Jobs to later start Next and purchase Pixar from Lucas. Paul Allen was instrumental Microsoft's early days including coding Microsoft Basic and making deals. Gates had the chance to then operate from a strong position to grow Microsoft and lock in that monopoly. Warren Buffett has always said that he didn't create Bershire alone and that Charlie Munger (as well as Benjamin Graham) helped immensely.

I am currently a single founder and I disagree with the idea that you must have a co-founder to be successful. I'm just arguing that if you want to use Gates,Jobs and Buffett as your examples of single founders they don't hold up well.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#57
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allen and Woz both left early on. Allen was in a plane wreck and/or got cancer or some such? Woz was gone before Jobs was at Next, Pixar, or back at Apple. I'm sure Jobs had a mother, also, but as I wrote, and is clearly the case, Apple, that is, the currently successful company, was a one man show from Jobs. While Munger is a bright guy, my reading is as I wrote it: Berkshire is a Buffett show.

I think you're missing the point here. How they parted does not matter much. What matters is that without the other they would have never made it to where they got.

Sure, Woz helped get Apple started. Then with that start, Jobs had cash that helped him at Next and Pixar and back at Apple where he worked for $1 a year. So, Jobs was really the 'founder' of the success at Next, Pixar, and the Apple we know today. Your point is just that the early success at Apple gave Jobs cash. With cash, Jobs was a wildly successful sole founder at Next, Pixar, and his return to Apple where the cash was relevant but not the early Apple or Woz.

The issue is, can a sole founder be successful? The evidence from Jobs at Next, Pixar, and Apple upon his return is, with cash, yes. So, just for the people involved, Jobs is a great example of a successful sole founder in his last three gigs.

You are bending over backwards to refuse to see this. Why don't you go on and say that the iPod was due to his mother while you are at it?

Again, yet again, so that even you might be able to get it, is Jobs, with some cash, was three times a successful sole founder. That's the issue: A sole founder, and three times he was. Even you can get that now.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the roulette ball drops into the slot 00, the play was still a "big risk", and so was, under the circumstances, insisting on a cofounder. That is, given how much Drew had already done, a cofounder had to be mostly just downside risk. The 'mitigation' had to be minimal. Or, Drew's left hand doesn't fight with his right hand, but cofounders can easily fight. If a cofounder is really needed, then so be it. But a…

Bill Gates had Paul Allen, Steve Jobs had Steve Wozniak and Warren Buffett had Charlie Munger. You can argue that one-half of these duos produced more than the other but would they have been able to without the support of the other half?

"would they have been able to without the support of the other half?" The evidence overwhelmingly, yes they would have been successful. You are correct that Gates, Jobs, and Buffett are not perfect examples of successful sole founders, but the question is, can a sole founder be successful? The 'rub' in this question is, can just one guy, alone, making all the decisions alone, do well? Then the examples of Gates, Jobs, and Buffett are quite relevant because each did great things essentially alone.

For Jobs, whatever might say about Woz and Jobs's first period at Apple, later Jobs did very well alone at Next, Pixar, and back at Apple. For those last three gigs, Woz was somewhere in the nickel seats. Yes, the success with Woz gave Jobs a lot of cash that was no doubt important for him in his last three gigs. So, then we say that Jobs is an example of a three time successful sole founder with cash. So, with cash a sole founder can work.

After the success of MS/DOS and Allen leaving Microsoft, Gates really had to reinvent, 'refound' the company. It is fair to say that he was a founder again. Yes, he was a founder with cash, but he was still acting essentially alone. Again, the issue is, can a sole founder do it alone, and that is what we are addressing. With the cash from MS/DOS, Gates did it alone. It's amazing what he did because he crushed IBM, Sun, Lotus, Netscape, DB2, and more.

For Buffett, no way should we count Ben Graham! He wrote a book and was a prof of Buffett at Columbia and possibly a friend. Graham had likely hundreds of students and millions of readers, but there was just one Berkshire. So, for Berkshire I don't credit Graham.

For Munger's role, that's just a judgment call, but my reading is that Buffett didn't much need him. Partly I draw that conclusion because it appears in recent years Buffett has been making his decisions essentially just alone.

Again, the main issue is, can a sole founder really get the work done or will he go off the deep end, for fast women, slow horses, cheap booze, wacko ideas, etc.? Well, Gates, Jobs, and Buffett didn't do any of these bad things.

There's another great example: Fred Smith at FedEx. I absolutely, positively guarantee you that there I know in fine detail just what the heck I'm talking about: FedEx was due almost entirely just to Smith, not Art Bass, Roger Frock, Mike Basch, ..., or me. Yes, it's true that Smith had a fortune from Southern Greyhound.

But with a fortune, it's easy, right? Tell that to Carly Fiorina, John Akers, Gil Amelio, Pat Dunn, etc.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#59
post #42

The downsides to having no co-founder: - you get to deal with the stress on your own (or maybe you have a supportive spouse) - you can't have soundboard sessions with your co-founders - you can't divide the labor - you have to have a lot of expertise in a variety of fields - if you get ill early on it will likely kill the company - nobody will call you out when you're spouting nonsense - likely a long long list of st…

I started a business in college, by myself, and it had revenues of about 6 million by the time I hit 25. I'm now 30 and on my second business, which I also started and am now running by myself.

Why don't I elaborate on some upsides to your little list?

* You are the only one. That means if something goes wrong, you can't shift the blame. Not even subconsciously. It's always your fault. This guarantees problems get fixed and they get fixed fast.

* You are the only one. That means you don't have to get approval or dilute your ideas. It gets implemented. Now. If you're spouting bullshit, the market will filter and you will adjust, fast.

* You are the only one. You have to do everything. That means you understand every aspect of your business, because at some point, you did it. This helps you make effective decisions.

* You are the only one. etc etc etc

You get the idea. I can go on forever and you can go on forever listing wonderful things about co-founders. One way isn't better than another. They are different and the path you take depends on your goals.

If your goal is to build a business that grows into hundred-million+ entity so you can cash out or where you can garner a cult following (i.e. Steve Jobs/Bill Gates/Larry Ellison/etc), you need a co-founder. On the other hand, if you want a business where you can pour your unmitigated passion into, where it becomes a place that not only supports you, but where your ideas take form, a co-founder will just get in your way. To dumb it down, if the #1 goal on your list is money or status, bring somebody else on. You won't be able to compete by your lonesome. However, if the #1 goal on your list is the freedom to do things the way you want to do them ... the only way to accomplish that is to remove as many obstacles to that as possible. That means no co-founders, no investors, none of it. A structure where you don't have to check with anyone before you do something.

This, by the way, explains why most investors are completely against companies with no co-founders. It's not in their interest. The goals of the company do not align with their goals.

Re: Paul Graham, Dropbox and The Single Founder Exception

#60
post #59
post #42

The downsides to having no co-founder: - you get to deal with the stress on your own (or maybe you have a supportive spouse) - you can't have soundboard sessions with your co-founders - you can't divide the labor - you have to have a lot of expertise in a variety of fields - if you get ill early on it will likely kill the company - nobody will call you out when you're spouting nonsense - likely a long long list of st…

I started a business in college, by myself, and it had revenues of about 6 million by the time I hit 25. I'm now 30 and on my second business, which I also started and am now running by myself. Why don't I elaborate on some upsides to your little list? * You are the only one. That means if something goes wrong, you can't shift the blame. Not even subconsciously. It's always your fault. This guarantees problems get fi…

Good stuff. Dealing with your co-founders indeed expands into a long list all by itself, to make it explicit is better.

Freedom is indeed the #1 reason I had when I decided to be a 'single founder' (in fact, it wasn't a conscious decision at the time, I only realized it after the fact) and getting an investor on board was the last thing on my mind.

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