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A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

thecritic.co.uk

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Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#51

Post by quanto »

mbg721 wrote: post #43
rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-…

> I think the traditional break when the West finally gave up is as good as any.

Except that the Greek-speaking part was as Roman as the Latin-speaking part in culture, heritage, bureaucracy, governance, and self-identity. The later Western European historians' designation of the East as "Byzantine" (read: not "real" Romans) is much motivated by the West Europe's desire to see themselves as intellectual descendants of the Roman Empire (n.b. Italian Renaissance and Classicism).

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#52

Post by mr_toad »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

> The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little.

From what I’ve read the bureaucracy was entirely replaced by the Sultan’s court. Daily life might not have changed much for the Roman in the street, but the Res Publica was gone for good.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#53

Post by brnt »

KoftaBob wrote: post #34
dan-robertson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that the Greek works likely could not have survived medieval Europe if they had left Constantinople a lot earlier. There were two great advantages to renaissance scholars: 1. The works were still in their original Greek (rather than translations into Latin done long ago, or the translations from Greek to Arabic (and then to Latin) that came in through moorish Spain). 2. Religious attitudes allowe…

> if a book disagreed with the bible it was heresy and should be destroyed, and if it agreed with the bible it was unnecessary and could be destroyed. Not sure where you're getting this from, but it's suspiciously similar to this commentary by Islamic Caliph Omar, where he was talking about the books in the Library of Alexandria. "Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. Several later Arabic sou…

Fundamentalist extremists are found in every religion I guess.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#54

Post by teleforce »

honkdaddy wrote: post #47
teleforce wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun facts, do you know that the fall of Roman Byzantine Empire is prophesized in a reputable Islamic tradition? According to the tradition, the general who conquered Constantinople is the best general ever and eventually the title is held by the Sultan Muhammad Al-Fatih. Also the fact that one of the first missions to conquer Constantinople is joined by Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, the claimed sahabah (friend) of prophet Muh…

I think they specifically said “helped”, you’re the one that said single-handedly. I didn’t think any of what he said was nonsense, I found it pretty fascinating, as I did yours. I doubt they meant anything inflammatory by it.

Is this statement make sense to you, "large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica". This is just one single guy compared to the two Muslim empires that thrived on the Greek and other civilizations knowledge that really contributed to the Renaissance movement.

Plethon lived during 14th and 15th century before the fall of Byzantine empire and if you want to credit one guy it should be Averroes (Ibnu Rush) who lived in the 12th century, at least two centuries before Plethon. He was highly regarded by the western scholar as the next Philosopher after Aristotle but not so much in the muslim world. He definitely has access to the Greek works including by Plato and Aristotle. I would say his many translations, commentaries and original works of more than 100 books were instrumentals in re-awakening the western European interest in Greek thinkers, an area of study that widely has been abandoned after the fall of original Roman Empire (not Byzantine) [1]. These do not include the numerous Greek, Chinese and Indian translations, and further contributions of Abbasid empire's scholars (Averroes belongs to the Muslim Spain empire) that includes the well-known House of Wisdoms but later was burnt down in the 13th CE by the Mongols. It's said that the river in Baghdad turn into blue due to the inks of the disposed books. Some of the books managed to escape the utter destructions from copying and circulations in the Muslim Spain and other part of the Abbasid empire that really helped the Renaissance movement later on.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#55

Post by nec4b »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

By that logic the Italians today are still living in a western Roman Empire.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#57

Post by dr_dshiv »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #46
mbg721 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-…

I think the same arguments could be applied to the USA

Can you imagine a USA where half spoke Spanish, half English and less than 1% both?

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#58

Post by dr_dshiv »

teleforce wrote: post #54
honkdaddy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they specifically said “helped”, you’re the one that said single-handedly. I didn’t think any of what he said was nonsense, I found it pretty fascinating, as I did yours. I doubt they meant anything inflammatory by it.

Is this statement make sense to you, "large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica". This is just one single guy compared to the two Muslim empires that thrived on the Greek and other civilizations knowledge that really contributed to the Renaissance movement. Plethon lived d…

Among those who really made a difference, check out the Brethren of Purity. English translation of their encyclopedia is coming out this year. There is a ton of work needed in Arabic and not enough scholarship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_the_Brethren_o...

But, yeah, I’ll stand up for old Marsilio’s influence any day. The story is amazing.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#59

Post by dr_dshiv »

bodhiandphysics wrote: post #30
bodhiandphysics wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one was particularly interested. People in Constantinople didn’t even know what manuscripts they had! (The major extent Plato manuscripts fir instance are from the 9th-11th centuries, the so called Macedonian renaissance). Westerners became really interested in classical literature after about 1200. Works were preserved, but they often didn’t circulate, to the extent that in the 14th century, Petrarch was able to…

Homer is an exception to this! There are almost a thousand Homeric manuscripts. There are 7 Plato manuscripts. Aristotle was significantly more popular, with almost 300 manuscripts, almost all from the west, and due to Byzantine originals starting in the 11th century

Do these Homeric manuscripts all come the Thrasyllus edition in Alexandria?

It’s crazy that every single one of Plato’s books survived.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#60

Post by coldtea »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

>The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it

Well, it was a conquest, from different peoples, with different civilization, and different religion, and different laws and government structures.

That's pretty much the definition of the end of an empire.

>If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors.

Not really. There are countless laments for the fall of the empire from the "Greeks living in the Byzantine Empire" at the era, all the way from folk sayings and stories, to scholars, and tons of insurrection against the invaders after the fall of Constantinople.

This idea of the "random masses" that have no sense of belonging and identity, and just change a rule after a different people conquer their lands and impose their rule is dehumanizing and ludicrous, doubly so for an empire and a civilization that last for a millenium...

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