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A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

thecritic.co.uk

41–50 of 94 posts

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#41

If you like history, like podcasts, and are interested in Byzantium, you will love Robin Pierson's “The History of Byzantium” podcast. https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/about/

The fall of Rome podcast is also very good. It covers approx. 300-600 AD. https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#42
post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it.

If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little.

People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Empire wanted to be recognised as successors to the Roman Empire, but the truth is that the Ottomans were the real successors.

Some info on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_claim_to_Roman_success...

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#43
post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-speaking half was all that was left. Sure, there's a continuous line of succession much later, but for Gaius Quinctilius Budweiser, I think the traditional break when the West finally gave up is as good as any.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#44
post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

I don't think your wikipedia link supports the assertion that institutions and bureaucracy changed very little. Even 'continuation' is fairly shaky since, as the page itself points out, unlike the subsequent Ottoman one, the Byzantine empire wasn't much of an empire by the time the Ottomans took Constantinople (and for quite a stretch before that).

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#45
post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

Fun facts, do you know that the fall of Roman Byzantine Empire is prophesized in a reputable Islamic tradition? According to the tradition, the general who conquered Constantinople is the best general ever and eventually the title is held by the Sultan Muhammad Al-Fatih. Also the fact that one of the first missions to conquer Constantinople is joined by Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, the claimed sahabah (friend) of prophet Muhammad that hosted him when he migrated to Madinah due to the hostility of his tribes in Mecca. Legend has it Abu Ayyub (at the old age of 90s) died just outside the great wall of Constanstinople during the unsuccesful tour.

Please stop the nonsense that the western world single handedly saved the Greek knowledge. Actually the Muslim scholars that performed most of the scavenging and translations to Arabic in addition to other significant knowledge contributions that later found their way to dark ages Europe, igniting their Renaissance as we know it. They did it because of the importance of knowledge and the fact that translation works are handsomely rewarded by the Caliphs with gold equivalent in book's weight. These massive Greek to Arabic translations and on top of that the more important new knowledge contributions (e.g. Khawarizmi, Avicenna, Averroes) works later found their way to Europe after the fall of Muslim Spain empire starting with the fall of Toledo (the knowledge and translation center) in the 11th CE. Most the Greek books and knowledge were lost by the literally burning of the books and libraries (e.g Alexandria library) by the later Roman Emperors.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-…

I think the same arguments could be applied to the USA

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#47
post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

Fun facts, do you know that the fall of Roman Byzantine Empire is prophesized in a reputable Islamic tradition? According to the tradition, the general who conquered Constantinople is the best general ever and eventually the title is held by the Sultan Muhammad Al-Fatih. Also the fact that one of the first missions to conquer Constantinople is joined by Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, the claimed sahabah (friend) of prophet Muh…

I think they specifically said “helped”, you’re the one that said single-handedly. I didn’t think any of what he said was nonsense, I found it pretty fascinating, as I did yours. I doubt they meant anything inflammatory by it.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

I don't think your wikipedia link supports the assertion that institutions and bureaucracy changed very little. Even 'continuation' is fairly shaky since, as the page itself points out, unlike the subsequent Ottoman one, the Byzantine empire wasn't much of an empire by the time the Ottomans took Constantinople (and for quite a stretch before that).

The Ottomans were already ruling most of the Byzantine empire by the time they took Constantinople.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#49

If you like history, like podcasts, and are interested in Byzantium, you will love Robin Pierson's “The History of Byzantium” podcast. https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/about/

I'd like to recommend another podcast on the subject, 12 Byzantine Rulers by Lars Brownworth: https://12byzantinerulers.com/

It's a short one, 17 episodes of about 20 minutes each. But these episodes are information-dense and have surprising depth. Also, this was one of the first podcasts ever published, starting in 2005.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#50

If you like history, like podcasts, and are interested in Byzantium, you will love Robin Pierson's “The History of Byzantium” podcast. https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/about/

The fall of Rome podcast is also very good. It covers approx. 300-600 AD. https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/

Tides of History, also by Patrick Wyman, is also fantastic. Among many other topics, it covers the fall of the Byzantine Empire and rise of the Ottoman Empire.
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