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Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

reuters.com

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Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#51

Post by ajross »

karpierz wrote: post #47
ajross wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at what point is it fraud? It's fraud when someone is harmed. People like you who didn't buy the product and don't want it don't have standing here. People like me, who did, do. And almost without exception, we're all lined up to get the beta release. Offer me a $10k refund today in exchange for never getting access to FSD releases, and I'd turn it down. "People willfully paying for something I don't like" isn't fr…

Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released? I think that "pay now, maybe get it later" or "don't pay now, can't buy it later" is a false dilemma.

> Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released?

It wouldn't. It would be an existence proof that this isn't fraud: I want the product, they offer it as a pre-purchase with disclaimers, I bought it, ergo I wasn't harmed. Getting a refund now for a product a fully intend to purchase again in the future is called a "loan".

Again, fraud is a crime. It requires damages. I have to have been harmed.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#52

Post by btbuilder »

voakbasda wrote: post #21
nightski wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've definitely been hesitant to buy a Tesla for exactly this reason. It's not clear if you can turn it off or avoid it by not using FSD either. It's a shame, would love to own one some day. But I'm guessing the option of buying a car that doesn't have this is slowly dying unfortunately. Consumers never win with this sort of stuff. The really ironic thing is that it is tied in with a more environmentally friendly car…

I will continue to repair my ‘70s and ‘80s era vehicles, because newer models that incorporate electronics are all total garbage. Reason: embedded engineer for 30 years who has worked on automotive software.

In my experience fuel injection is much more reliable than carburetors. Fuel injection requires zero adjustment. Many mid-90s cars have electronic fuel injection and ABS controllers and that’s it.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#53

Post by frosted-flakes »

lttlrck wrote: post #50
vanilla_nut wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's only a very small intersection between the Facebook-avoiding, home assistant-eschewing crowd and the Tesla driving crowd. Anecdotal I know, but most people I know who drive Teslas have multiple home assistants, Instagram/Facebook accounts, and little regard for personal privacy. Most people I know in the social media/home assistant avoiding crowd talk about how they wish they could buy a car with…

2021 safety tech includes back-up camera and associated LCD display, auto braking, lane keeping, LED headlight advancements, blind spot monitoring and numerous air bags, auto wipers and lights etc etc. plus structural improvement. The car they want sounds like less well made 2021 car with 1990s fuel economy and performance and a drivetrain that is easier to maintain but needs more maintenance.

No, just the airbags, structural improvements (including crumple zones), and ABS brakes. Most of the other things you listed are primarily or exclusively convenience features.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#54

Post by mensetmanusman »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

This reminds me of the medical data issue.

We are learning that humanity can learn a lot about how to treat diseases with enough understanding (data).

It’s entirely foreseeable that level 5 FSD isn’t possible without data.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#55

Post by Waterluvian »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #26
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I feel like there's only a very small intersection between the Facebook-avoiding, home assistant-eschewing crowd and the Tesla driving crowd. Anecdotal I know, but most people I know who drive Teslas have multiple home assistants, Instagram/Facebook accounts, and little regard for personal privacy. Most people I know in the social media/home assistant avoiding crowd talk about how they wish they could buy a car with…

Not just most Tesla drivers, but most people in general have these things.

The recurring theme is just how terrible high tech people are at estimating what’s normal in the world.

The overwhelming majority of people don’t think or care about the privacy concerns of either. The overwhelming majority of Tesla drivers are not privacy oriented tech nerds.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#56

Post by manigandham »

lttlrck wrote: post #50
vanilla_nut wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's only a very small intersection between the Facebook-avoiding, home assistant-eschewing crowd and the Tesla driving crowd. Anecdotal I know, but most people I know who drive Teslas have multiple home assistants, Instagram/Facebook accounts, and little regard for personal privacy. Most people I know in the social media/home assistant avoiding crowd talk about how they wish they could buy a car with…

2021 safety tech includes back-up camera and associated LCD display, auto braking, lane keeping, LED headlight advancements, blind spot monitoring and numerous air bags, auto wipers and lights etc etc. plus structural improvement. The car they want sounds like less well made 2021 car with 1990s fuel economy and performance and a drivetrain that is easier to maintain but needs more maintenance.

Outside of airbags and structural/material improvements, most of that hasn't actually contributed much to safety.

Many brands have also seen a big decline in reliability and quality of craftsmanship. In fact Tesla's high-end models still don't match the quality control of Toyota's most basic cars. Sure tech has improved but construction and longevity has taken a hit.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#57

Post by mensetmanusman »

mrhands556 wrote: post #39
toomuchtodo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d agree with that. We own Teslas but have no home assistants, use Facebook as little as possible, and buy Apple products because of their privacy stance. Nuance is important. I trust Tesla and Apple with my data, but not Facebook, Google, or Amazon. Contributing in small part to the electrification of transportation is more important to us than any benefit I’d enjoy from Tesla collecting less or no data from our ve…

But why one companies and not the other in terms of trust? It’s not like there are inherently different types of people working at one company vs the other. I’m curious.

Perfection shouldn’t be the enemy of improvement.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#59

Post by pengaru »

profile53 wrote: post #41
pengaru wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want a high-performance engine that meets modern emissions requirements, you're probably going to be looking at EFI and turbochargers. Changing the fuel injection maps on a modern car requires something akin to rooting/flashing an Android. It's also federally illegal , I don't know why you've veered this thread into ease of performing illegal modifications.

Incidentally, rooting an android tablet is federally illegal too.

Are you referring to the DMCA?

The closest analog with smartphones to federal emissions laws is more like the FCC prohibiting hacking the baseband ostensibly to protect the cellular network.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#60

Post by mensetmanusman »

csours wrote: post #5

Disclaimer: I work for a Tesla competitor. To combat fundamental attribution error, whenever you read an article about Tesla, try replacing the word 'Tesla' with your least favorite car or consumer product company. 'Brand X' has a bunch of data about accidents, and they are motivated to not share all of it with authorities. When they do share data they are motivated to share the data that presents them in the best li…

It’s a good question, because in reality it depends on where the data is going.

E.g. in China they don’t trust parents with data on the gender of their child from ultrasounds due to the prevalence of sex-selective abortions. In other countries there are parties about the data. Data is always in a cultural context.

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