This is a funny question. And it's telling that European vs American is clearly unfair while Indian salaries, got example, aren't considered.
Economies are faith-based.
Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#52Market economy. In the US there is a perception of shortage and so wages are artificially increased (as compared to other industries of equivalent skills/experience/challenge) to account for that perception. The reason that perception exists is a misalignment between how developers are produced, the skills required by industry, and the things employers are willing to do to compensate for that supposed gap.
Citations?
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#53we are just worth more
Not really, the same person is worth more for the same work if they're doing it in SF versus London.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#54It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder…
> It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much hard…
There's probably some spillover / upwards pressure from the successful US companies. But I think the main driver is that in Europe, software is mostly considered a cost centre instead of a revenue centre. In Europe there are not that many successful tech giants, where programmers are seen as essential for bringing in the money. Rather, most programmers work in other industries supporting the main business.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#55A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference
And some understate just how fragile the “well taken care of” employee’s circumstances are in the US. All those great perks (and they quite often are) tied to your employment, which can be easily and readily lost in America.
I’m glad that these sort of protections apply to more people in Europe, too, rather than just some small privileged set of highly-paid employees.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much hard…
There's probably some spillover / upwards pressure from the successful US companies. But I think the main driver is that in Europe, software is mostly considered a cost centre instead of a revenue centre. In Europe there are not that many successful tech giants, where programmers are seen as essential for bringing in the money. Rather, most programmers work in other industries supporting the main business.
Yeah. This is at least a plausible explanation for the bimodal distribution.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#57I earn less money, but I work 32 hours a week, have 6 weeks paid vacation, and a 5 minute commute. It's also really hard to "translate" money via exchange rates. Cost of living matters a lot. If food and housing is cheap, then the money goes a lot longer. That's also the sort of goods that the arbitrage pressure of international trade struggles to even out. Maybe if WFH becomes a big international thing, but I don't…
I’m 100% wfh in the US and it’s a double edged sword. I brought my daughter to the dentist yesterday at 2pm which would not have worked if I was at the office. But if I take a day and I have some calls I always get the “can you make those work on your day off?” guilt trips. I only get 15 days and probably 3-5 I get away with 0 work. Rest of them is 1-4 hours.
Again it’s not terrible but it just makes it impossible to unplug (I’m looking at your slack!)
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#58There are a lot of hidden perks and benefits that us Europeans never see (even though we pay for them) such as healthcare, childcare, higher education and elderly care. Just as an example a former colleague moved to the US and his spouse stopped working because the cost of daycare was basically one full salary.
I’ve heard of that happening in Netherlands too, where it doesn’t make much sense for one spouse to keep working due to the cost of child care. That’s not universally cheap in Europe.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#59The main difference is that, at least in my country, my salary represents a part of what my company pays for my employment. AFAIR if I earn X my company is paying X*1.5 that goes into taxes, social security, etc. While in the US the salary is mostly given to the employee and they have to pay for all of the above. In your example, that company in NL could be paying something closer to 80k-90k which depending on the exchange rate is close to US$100.000
OTOH, we all know how some salaries are crazy high in high COL areas like SF, which I'm sure don't represent the whole of the US. I work with devs in Florida and NC that don't get pass the 6 figures.
Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?
#60first of all, 57k in NL is definitly NOT top segment. thats mid level. top segment for seniors is more like 80k to 95k. thats a huge difference already! also mind that those online figures not necessarily include 8% vacation money, 13th month, 25-30 days pto and pension fund (up to 100%, usually 50%) source: i had this salary myself after 6 yrs and subsequently hired a lot of people in this segment for roughly that a…
8% vacation money = 13th month. 57k in NL is low medior salary, with 80-95k being the average non-FAANG senior range, wih the exception of possibly Booking.
> 8% vacation money = 13th month
No, quite often it’s both. The holiday allowance is by law but an additional 13th month is also often paid out. Depends on the company.