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Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

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Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#21

Post by mmmmmbop »

It all comes down to U.S. tech companies being much more successful, mainly because of the scale of the U.S. market. Any U.S. startup can immediately address a market of $21T (GDP) without any regulatory overhead or language considerations. This causes engineers to be insanely productive in terms of economic productivity. In comparison, Germany, the largest country in the EU, has a GDP of only $3.8T. It's much harder to scale across the entire EU, and even then, the entire EU market is still smaller at $15T.

The second question is, why do international companies like FAANG underpay their European employees compared to their American peers? The reason for that is the prevailing market wage. Any company will pay as little they can while still getting the caliber of talent they need. Given the lower economic productivity of engineers working in local tech companies, the prevailing market wages are lower, so FAANG don't need to pay as much to get the top talent.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#22

Post by BrS96bVxXBLzf5B »

herbst wrote: post #4

It's not so simple. The places you can earn these wages in the US have incredible high cost of living usually. Something that is way less extreme over here. Then health care, social security and pension costs. That could easily half your US income to get to the same standards. Also taxes, NL or DE has very high taxes comparingly however NL also has a amazing public infrastructure you get for that. You won't need a ca…

Americans love to bring this up but half of a six figure US income still leaves abundantly more than £32k at 6 years experience leaves outside of London. Without a car, dependents, and with private healthcare costs (because the NHS is far more flawed than propaganda would have you believe), I'm not the only one living alone in a mould-infested flat that isn't even suitable to keep a pet, unable to move because of trying to cling on to the lower-but-still-too-high rent price ridden through the recent massive increases, putting no savings away, in a country where recent delivery shortages make your fresh food shop a roll of the dice.

I'm glad to have the shelter, warmth, and relative security that many others don't, but living as a software engineer in this country is nowhere near comparable to other 'similar' countries, whether the US, Canada, or European neighbours.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#23

Post by digianarchist »

drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

Health care always gets brought up but salaries are higher in Canada than a lot of European cities.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#24

Post by digianarchist »

jstx1 wrote: post #18
drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

Also, just because those benefits exist doesn't mean that they're good or worth it. In the UK I often need to access healthcare privately not through the NHS. My projected state pension is a joke even though the National Insurance contributions are significant. I feel like I'm paying a lot and not getting anything in return. Add to that the high cost of living in London and the whole picture looks much worse than the…

NHS care seems to depend entirely on the trust.

Both my mother and uncle have had hip replacements. Mother waited 6 months. My uncle was wait-listed for years before going private.

Walk in centres appear to be universally bad everywhere. Canada's are meccas in comparison.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#26

Post by ghoomketu »

I remember when the salaries in India for a full-stack engg were in the range of $2000 / mo ($24K) and it was considered a "good" salary. We had to work on Saturdays and often Sundays. And I'm not talking of some local company, but the so-called tech leaders like Wipro.

One time I was travelling with a french colleague and while I was given an economy class ticket my friend got a business class ticket on the same flight. We were doing the same work on the same project.

There is so much disparity in this world :(

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#27

Post by The_Colonel »

digianarchist wrote: post #23
drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

Health care always gets brought up but salaries are higher in Canada than a lot of European cities.

There's a lot of variation in Europe, but IME the salaries in Western Europe are comparable to Canadian ones.

Also, the Canadian healthcare is not exactly stellar. For some reason, dental care in Canada is "only cosmetic" and not covered by insurance.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#28

Post by mpfundstein »

first of all, 57k in NL is definitly NOT top segment. thats mid level. top segment for seniors is more like 80k to 95k.

thats a huge difference already!

also mind that those online figures not necessarily include 8% vacation money, 13th month, 25-30 days pto and pension fund (up to 100%, usually 50%)

source: i had this salary myself after 6 yrs and subsequently hired a lot of people in this segment for roughly that amount.

contractors can demand even more. its not unlikely for React senior people to charge 100-120 p.h.

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#29

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

drstewart wrote: post #8

A lot of the Europeans in this thread will jump on things like health care or other social benefits without realizing that high paid workers in the US are well taken care of in this regard. The truth is the pay is higher in the US and is not particularly close. It's funny trying to see Europeans argue places like London, Zurich, or Amsterdam are "low cost" compared to US cities to try justify the difference

A lot of my US friends are paid a lot but have 0 free time. I'm not paid as much but I have a lot of free time and holiday (31 + public holidays). Also being sick doesn't use holiday days

Re: Ask HN: A US programmer makes 3 times that of a EU programmer. Why?

#30

Post by shetill »

jstx1 wrote: post #20
shetill wrote: post #16

Only way to make comparable money in Europe is by contracting. For some reason full-time employees are massively underpaid compared to US and don't tell me about living cost comparison. Life in London for example is just as expensive if not more than San Francisco/New York. We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. People can barely afford an average…

> We pay for our national health insurance too and probably comparable to what Americans pay for their private. To clarify something, in the UK there are two main deductions on personal income - income tax and National Insurance. National Insurance doesn't pay for healthcare, it pays for things like state pension and other support benefits - https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/what-national-insuranc... . The Nation…

thanks for clarifying I always thought NI contributes to NHS. Shame that it's not, makes sense now why NHS is in this state...
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