More on Vaccine Side Effects • Hacker News Board

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#51

Post by desine » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

omegaworks wrote: post #49

desine wrote: post #43

>So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. Not sure I agree that it's so easily quantifiable or justifiable. The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. The vaccination side effects have been rare, but mostly affecting the youn…

>The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. Why do the old and infirm deserve to die? >the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs mRNA therapies have been in clinical trials for over a decade now[1]. 1. https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-v...

I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. I stated that the young seem to be more prone to these side effects, and that quantifying these two against each other is problematic.

Yes, clinical trials tend to be done in labs. I'm speaking colloquially here. A clinical trial of a few thousand is not nearly the same as a global push to vaccinate everyone from teenage years up.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#52

Post by hippari » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

anonymouswacker wrote: post #29

beiller wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

Given that covid is entirely treatable in 99.9+% of cases (read the studies & physician anecdotes who have been treating it effectively since last March), it makes more sense to me to take the path of being proactive, healthy, and unvaccinated until it reaches Approved status. To each their own.

Once your hospitals are overwhelmed the deathrate went through the roof, you should catch up with recent news from India & South East Asea. https://www.reuters.com/world/india/indias-covid-death-rate-...

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#53

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

anonymouswacker wrote: post #29

beiller wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

Given that covid is entirely treatable in 99.9+% of cases (read the studies & physician anecdotes who have been treating it effectively since last March), it makes more sense to me to take the path of being proactive, healthy, and unvaccinated until it reaches Approved status. To each their own.

Literally nothing is going to change between now and when the mRNA vaccines get approved. Probably a month or two to go at this point.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#54

Post by elric » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

awoimbee wrote: post #12

sofixa wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in. It's not mandatory, unless you consider restaurants and travel to be necessities one needs ( and you can still use a test in lieu of a vaccine certificate, and tests are still free)

I could maybe agree if the restrictions were put in the winter, but not in the summer. People have already booked their vacation, and now they need to do a PCR every 2 days to take a train, enjoy restaurants ? That's insane ! To get the "pass sanitaire" you need: first shot -> wait 3 weeks -> second shot -> wait 2 weeks. That's more than a month !

> People have already booked their vacation

Booking vacations in the middle of a global pandemic and massive restrictions ... seems a tad ... reckless.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#55

Post by timr » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

> mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse.

This may be a true statement on a population level, but you have to be more careful for specific sub-populations. For boys under age 18, in particular, it's looking quite likely that avoiding the second dose is a smart risk/benefit calculation:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/93340

Likewise, it makes no sense for a younger (healthy, non-obese...) woman to get the J&J or AZ vaccines, so in certain countries, it makes no sense for young women to get vaccinated. The messaging here is far too blunt.

Oddly, the one blunt, true message that doesn't seem to get transmitted is that the bad effects of this virus are largely eliminated by vaccinating those over 65.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#56

Post by cameldrv » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

anonymouswacker wrote: post #29

beiller wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

Given that covid is entirely treatable in 99.9+% of cases (read the studies & physician anecdotes who have been treating it effectively since last March), it makes more sense to me to take the path of being proactive, healthy, and unvaccinated until it reaches Approved status. To each their own.

Given that 0.2% of the U.S. population has died of COVID, this argument seems a bit outdated.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#57

Post by elric » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

CarelessExpert wrote: post #36

I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten…

It's a problem with interpreting risk and control. Allow me to explain:

1. People think (wrongly) that they can control catching the virus. They can wear a mask, keep their distance, etc. This gives them a false sense of security and control. They think that if they do catch covid, they're unlikely to get really sick from it.

2. People (righly) think that they have very little control over what their bodies do after they get a vaccine.

3. People (wrongly) think that very serious side effects are more common than they are.

Those all combine to an incorrect belief that they are better off without getting vaccinated. It's not an absurd sequence of beliefs. It's wrong. But it's easy to see how a lot of people become skeptics.

Point 1 and 3 can both be remedied by increasing awareness. At least in my neck of the woods, official communication has been pretty poor. What's especially lacking is communication aimed at people who are not very science-literate.

When I got my first shot, there was almost zero information about potential side effects. Two weeks later, I developed a huge rash near the injection site. Being somewhat intelligent, I was able to look this up and figure out that it was no big deal. If someone who is already skeptical were to experience this, I imagine they would be very disinclined to get their second shot.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#58

Post by cunthorpe » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

CarelessExpert wrote: post #36

I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten…

I think in some cases either people are stupid or are just unreasonably scared.

I discussed this with a family member when AZ side effects started appearing on the news. I tried showing him the numbers (millions of inoculations, few “vaccine-related” deaths) but even presented with “The chances of getting sick with a vaccine are 0.00005%” (I don’t remember the exact number) he would not budge.

I told him “The chances of getting the virus + the chances of dying are hundreds of times higher.”

Nothing.

He just says “my friend got covid and he’s fine” and “that person on the news died from the vaccine.”

Stats and logic don’t work on some people.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#59

Post by oceanplexian » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

CarelessExpert wrote: post #36

I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten…

> Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus!

Children under age 14 are between 6.8 and 17 times less likely to die of Covid-19 than the seasonal flu or pneumonia. And here we are, trying to preemptively vaccinate them against a disease that they are not particularly susceptible to. I'm not sure if the vaccine is more dangerous but if it were, I doubt it would be making headlines.

The argument could be made that vaccinating children helps to protect vulnerable adults, and that them shouldering the risks from vaccination are for the public good, but that's not what the media and government are selling. They are intentionally distorting the facts to make the virus seem more dangerous than it actually is, overstating "long covid" and other pseudoscience, understating the risks, such as blood clots and cardiac conditions, and not being forthright about the risks of vaccinating young people.

My question is: Why not be honest with people? It sounds a lot like the guidance from Early-2020 when the CDC was telling us that masks were not effective in preventing COVID-19 transmission, which they backpedaled by saying they did spread misinformation, but it was "for the protection the supply of PPE for healthcare workers". Why should I trust a government agency that believes lying is OK if it's in the best interest of the government? Why would they be telling the truth now if they have a track record of misrepresenting the facts?

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#60

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

nathanaldensr wrote: post #17

djrogers wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures, reflexively push back when forced to do something, even if it's a Good Idea or something they'd do or have already done anyway. While that reflex may have downsides (like the current situation with vaccines), from a societal standpoint, it's a strong check again…

This is exactly correct. The modern assumption by certain ideologies that evil doesn't exist is at the root of this. Yes, there are people that will lie, use their credentials, use existing seemingly impartial processes, use psychological tricks, etc. to trick you and control you. Yes, these people exist! So many people are very, very naive, having never seen real evil. Evil has become abstracted--a meme. Do we have…

Agreed. However, the "evil" people are capitalizing on the pandemic in a very different way than the "good" people are.

> Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States?

Maybe not where you live. But roving militias are a thing across the midwest. Some dismiss them as bored guys cosplaying freedom fighters, but they are out there and are actively conspiring to hurt people. They just aren't taken seriously yet because they haven't actually hurt too many people.