Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apology

felleisen.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 282 posts

Re: Apology

#51

Post by neolog »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #43
LAC-Tech wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.

There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of fol…

Where do people stay silent for so long?

[Edit: rephrased]

Re: Apology

#52

Post by qez »

DJBunnies wrote: post #13

Took a hard cs course with fellisen at NU. Dude is ignorant to his toxic behavior, preaching egoless programming while being needlessly cruel during graded presentations. I know many cs folks at NU refused to take his classes.

And I know many more who sought out his class.

Re: Apology

#53

Post by zozbot234 »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #43
LAC-Tech wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.

There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of fol…

> There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority.

Hence why so many cases of "Yes, I understand. We'll do the needful." that don't go as planned...

Re: Apology

#54

Post by whatshisface »

williamsmj wrote: post #20
barnabees wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this isn't a real apology then what would you say a real apology looks like? Of the many public apologies I've read in the past this reads like an honest, genuine one. He admitted guilt, explained what he did wrong and did not try to justify it, and clearly stated that he apologizes. What's missing?

I have no doubt it is honest, but it's not a good apology. He barely remembers the specific incident (by his own admission). That's not his fault, but it makes the apology pretty much meaningless. He seems to assume he was a bit of a grumpy-puss that day, and that "jaded" their subsequent interactions. This is incredibly glib and diminishes the specific incident. But more importantly, he never admits to being a bully…

What's a bully? Someone who loses their temper? Someone who's scary and makes enemies more easily than friends? I think a bully is someone who uses intimidation to get their way, if someone intimidates random bystanders what they have is a need to work on their emotional self-control.

Re: Apology

#55

Post by nefitty »

DJBunnies wrote: post #13

Took a hard cs course with fellisen at NU. Dude is ignorant to his toxic behavior, preaching egoless programming while being needlessly cruel during graded presentations. I know many cs folks at NU refused to take his classes.

I got curious and checked his rate my professor profile. People either loved his class or hated his behavior. Sometimes both.

Re: Apology

#56

Post by neolog »

spoonjim wrote: post #21
jtbayly wrote: post #17

Summary of several HN replies: “Yeah, yeah, whatever. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it. You need to pay for it before we will accept your apology.” Hence, cancel culture. Edit: There’s no need to therefor assume the dude is totally changed based on one apology, but good grief people. The lesson I’m learning here is, “Never apologize. It will do no good and will simply drag the situation out longer.”

Well if saying “sorry” provides one with complete absolution then what’s the real cost of acting badly?

The cost is on the people who he behaved badly to. He needs to improve, not suffer.

Re: Apology

#57

Post by aeturnum »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #28
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #3

Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508

I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.

If you expect people to do things they don't feel comfortable doing, you will repeatedly be disappointed. If you are depending on coworkers to go outside their comfort zone, you will lose coworkers (and probably feel they are undependable). Even if you are right and this person is "too sensitive" in some way, they were also an important contributor who has left a project where they no longer felt comfortable. No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them.

Like, maybe a team that resolves conflict this was would really work more efficiently! But it will certainly push out anyone who isn't comfortable with that kind of interaction, while the efficiency gains seem more uncertain.

Re: Apology

#58

Post by williamsmj »

neolog wrote: post #51
qbasic_forever wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of fol…

Where do people stay silent for so long? [Edit: rephrased]

Hierarchies. The answer to your question is: hierarchies.

Re: Apology

#59

Post by wpietri »

CharlesW wrote: post #42
aaomidi wrote: post #33

Starting with an excuse for the behavior is not a good way to do an apology.

Except that he does not start with that — he starts with an unequivocal apology. As someone with no skin in the game and who doesn't know these people, it sounds like he's trying to explain why he didn't realize sooner that he was such a raging asshole to Matthew. (I understand that Mattias apparently has a history of this kind of behavior that this apology does not address.)

I read it as justification, which is typical in half-assed apologies. If that were the only flaw, I might call it a reasonable mistake. But given the other issues (failure to look at pattern, failure to work toward preventing similar future issues, failure to make amends), I think that's too generous a reading. To me it looks like part of a pattern.

Re: Apology

#60

Post by shkkmo »

qez wrote: post #48
aaomidi wrote: post #33

Starting with an excuse for the behavior is not a good way to do an apology.

I think you read the blog post in the wrong order. The apology is on line 3.

The way the appology is set to the right does make it easy to accidentally skip past.
Post reply on HN