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Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

politico.eu

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Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#51

Post by figassis »

PedroBatista wrote: post #41
figassis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem bitter. Time for some reading: - https://www.politico.eu/article/angola-portugal-investment-e... - https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/16/are-portuguese-banks-too-exp... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_dos_Santos#Investments_... - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/world/europe/angola-portu...

You seem confused. GDP is $257.391 billion, again what "large" part of the Portuguese economy is powered by Angola? Again, what do you mean by "large"?

First things first: large != largest.

Now, if a country has their hands in some of another country's largest companies, and many of them in key sectors such as banks, telecoms and energy, and in many cases becoming the biggest shareholder in such holdings, to the point where a countries own parliament has to hold sessions to protect their own bank's exposure to Angola, well, call it what you want, I'd call that large.

I worked for one of Portugal's great energy companies, both in Portugal and in Angola. I was working for them in Angola, when they were struggling financially because they could not compete with other European and and Chinese companies, both in Europe, South America and Africa, and I was there when the Angolan president's daughter bought the company and I was there when the company employees were relieved that deals would now become easier because the new majority shareholder also had the power to make the Angolan utility company sign new deals. In fact, the president's daughter forced the national utility to also become a shareholder. Even more, the forced the utility to also pay for her part of the shares. And the proud Portuguese company clapped through it all.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#52

Post by SyzygistSix »

mr_sand_man wrote: post #7

Relevant: - This was found out by sheer luck. The city hall did not warn that it was sharing personal/private information with any entity. - At the moment, there is no thinkable reason for this procedure. It seems the foreign embassies did not ask for any kind of information. - This procedure (apparently) started in 2011 and Lisbon’s mayor at that time is now the current Prime Minister, leader of the ruling party.

Certainly there were people other than the mayor involved. Mayors aren't autocrats. And regular worker/bureaucrats had to be doing the day-to-day collection and dissemination of information.

This is the reason why mass data collection by the likes of Google and Facebook is so dangerous; not because of whether we can trust people now to do the right thing with it but because it depends upon trusting future holders of that information.

This whole situation is rather shocking to me. I feel naive. Which, as a deeply cynical and suspicious person, is not a good feeling.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#53

Post by SyzygistSix »

figassis wrote: post #23
tchalla wrote: post #8

I read two articles on Politico.EU on the subject. Yet, I have a few questions. First, was there a request made to share data? Second, if there was a request made - what is the legal procedure to share data? Third, if there was no request made - why did the Portugal proactively share data?

Portugal is not very competitive internationally, so their economy became dependent on government contracts and deals with politically exposed persons. For example, most of Angola's corrupt elite stashed their wealth in Portugal by buying property and businesses. Additionally, corrupt countries are very hard to do business in without kickbacks, but if you're willing to play the game, it becomes very easy, as in your…

I believe Portugal also received large loans and investment from China as well.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#54

Post by SyzygistSix »

jdmoreira wrote: post #31
FpUser wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Pure stupidity. Never attribute to malice..." Like drunk drivers. They were just stupid and did not mean anything bad. Right? Sorry but if part of the government stuff that creates the rules is that "smart" they should be in janitorial positions. Problem is government nearly always gets away with anything they do.

A municipality is not the government. These are low level bureaucrats.

I would think if I was in this type of position, it would strike me as odd and a very not okay thing to do. Maybe the immersion in that kind of world creates a kind of indifference or inability to think outside of the context of bureaucratic protocols.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#55

Post by baybal2 »

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #50
baybal2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not citizens, but ethnic Poles https://apnews.com/article/belarus-europe-poland-race-and-et... https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/05/20/concern-over-four-eth... https://www.ft.com/content/cfc93283-32b9-4fa7-a769-44df294e7... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54090389 The information on betrayed weapon transfer comes from Telegram channels of Belarus opposition I frequent. I, on record, wrote about it 2 months…

Nothing in your links supports your claims. The articles don't say anything about the supposed prisoner exchange.

What do you think they exchanged them for then? Do you think Belarus went, and released Poles out of its good will out of a sudden?

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#56

Post by baybal2 »

ineedasername wrote: post #39
baybal2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of assembly conditional upon something is not a freedom, by definition.

All freedom comes with conditions, generally around not abusing them or otherwise interfering with other people's freedom. Freedom in general or in reference to a particular type never means you can do whatever you want. The entire premise of civil society is that there are conditions on behavior. It is a fundamental principal that one person's freedom ends where another person's begins. Or as I've heard it said, "Th…

I heard the same thing you now tell us from every totalitarian regime

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#57

Post by zfxfr »

baybal2 wrote: post #20

Well, Lisbon is not only one, but pretty much all of progressive liberal West been in bed with enemies at some point for "strategic" reasons (which usually means cash, and other treats.) France deports Russians with protected refugee status upon KGB requests in exchange for Russia staying away from them in Africa Poland plays double games with Belorussian opposition, promising assisting in smuggling weapons, and then…

You must have access to very special intel. Because I have never heard of these political refugee that France deported. I would to read some more info about it if it exist. I personally know a russian political refugee. Once the political refugee statute acquired you're basically a French citizen so there is NO WAY you 'll be deported.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#58

Post by splix »

zfxfr wrote: post #57
baybal2 wrote: post #20

Well, Lisbon is not only one, but pretty much all of progressive liberal West been in bed with enemies at some point for "strategic" reasons (which usually means cash, and other treats.) France deports Russians with protected refugee status upon KGB requests in exchange for Russia staying away from them in Africa Poland plays double games with Belorussian opposition, promising assisting in smuggling weapons, and then…

You must have access to very special intel. Because I have never heard of these political refugee that France deported. I would to read some more info about it if it exist. I personally know a russian political refugee. Once the political refugee statute acquired you're basically a French citizen so there is NO WAY you 'll be deported.

It's not very hard to google it, I guess it's this case: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur46/3999/2021/en/

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#59

Post by [deleted] »

zfxfr wrote: post #57
baybal2 wrote: post #20

Well, Lisbon is not only one, but pretty much all of progressive liberal West been in bed with enemies at some point for "strategic" reasons (which usually means cash, and other treats.) France deports Russians with protected refugee status upon KGB requests in exchange for Russia staying away from them in Africa Poland plays double games with Belorussian opposition, promising assisting in smuggling weapons, and then…

You must have access to very special intel. Because I have never heard of these political refugee that France deported. I would to read some more info about it if it exist. I personally know a russian political refugee. Once the political refugee statute acquired you're basically a French citizen so there is NO WAY you 'll be deported.

[deleted]

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#60

Post by baybal2 »

splix wrote: post #58
zfxfr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have access to very special intel. Because I have never heard of these political refugee that France deported. I would to read some more info about it if it exist. I personally know a russian political refugee. Once the political refugee statute acquired you're basically a French citizen so there is NO WAY you 'll be deported.

It's not very hard to google it, I guess it's this case: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur46/3999/2021/en/

And I think there were at least a dozen before to him.
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