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Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

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Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#51
post #29
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Why not? The Phoenicians had rowers and could just take down their sails. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme they also beached their boats at night so they must have been quite comfortable traveling over shallows.

Passing Bojador is something the Phoenecians had no relevant experience for. It’s an extensive shallows extending well out to sea with subsurface channels that cause violent and unpredictable surges.

The only way to do it is to sail far out into open ocean, well beyond sight of land, but the change in the winds drives you even further out to sea. Even in the early 1800s it was lethal, sinking as many as a handful of ships per year. Coast hugging just isn’t going to cut it.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#53
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Footnotes are useful to not break the flow of a thought with text that isn't meant to be read. Also, because of the link included at the end of a sentence, you were not able to include the conventional full stop immediately after the last character of the sentence.

It also helps for comments with multiple links to have a footer with all of them.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#55
post #29
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Why not? The Phoenicians had rowers and could just take down their sails. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme they also beached their boats at night so they must have been quite comfortable traveling over shallows.

the problem is freeboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeboard_(nautical) , i.e. the height of the "wall" of the sides of a ship to keep the splashy water out.

Oars need to be relatively close to the surface of the water, and where there are oarlocks water can get into the ship. Open seas are heavy seas, meaning the waves are very very high; six foot seas are nothing in the ocean, but a bitch to bob around in. And, in heavy seas you need deep draft--the "height" of the boat under water--for stability. Also, the "powerplant" and "fuel" for oars takes up too much space limiting the freight capacity of a ship. This is basically why rowing technology was abandoned for sailing around the world or across oceans. Paddle steamers were used somewhat, but the paddles just don't have the purchase against the surrounding water to move a heavy deep draft ship.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#56
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't "rowing" imply having lots of hungry rowers to feed and therefore a limited range?

Why do you think they were stopping every couple of months to sow a whole harvest of grain before moving on?

"every couple of months" is clearly an exaggeration and they were stopping at most annually. That said, a large number of hands may have indeed explained the need for large quantities of food, or maybe just the passage of years of time and limited storage space or planning.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#57
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Not a particularly good assumption to make imo.

For example, we now have multiple solid lines of evidence that ancient Polynesians were making it all the way from Oceana to Peru, and back, with some degree of regularity. We see this in human genetics on both sides, as well as the introduction of the potato to Oceana. The Polynesians had a very different approach to navigation than europeans, one based on amassing a great deal of knowledge about currents, bird and sea life behavior, as well as intuitive celestial navigation.

It seems likely the first folks to make this trip were forced into it via a storm or such, but what's stunning is it's clear some of them were able to map the path well enough to be able to find their way back home later. There are still some people who use these navigation skills today. Look up the maps they make with sticks and twine. They're pretty interesting.

In any case, my point is there's historically been a lot of variation in sailing techniques and technology. If you looked at an ancient Polynesian proa, you'd almost certainly assume it's impossible they could cross such a vast distance. But they did. No doubt many drowned, but we know as an empirical fact some made it, and made it back.

The ancient Phoenicians were brilliant mariners. They invented the trireme, the keel, the amphora, etc. It's easy to think of these as crude technologies, especially based on hollywood portrays, but the reality is these were the NASA astronauts of their era. Coordinating large number of rowers that are stuck in the hull and blind to their surroundings is not as trivial as it might seem.

As another comment points out, triremes and similar vessels usually beach at night. The sailors are capable of dragging the things considerably away from the water line. In fact they have to do so relatively often to let the boats dry out for some number of days. Likewise we know of several places around the med where ships were dragged considerable distances over standardized portage/ferrying routes routinely.

This is very different from the ships the Portuguese were using in the 1400s. Their ships were bigger, with deeper draft, and with rock ballast in the lowest hold for stability. They'd have a limited capability to use poles/oars to push themselves through shallows where they were partially dragging, but covering longer distances on land with such ships is infeasible without far more people. Combine that with an aversion to sailing out of sight of the coastline, and you can see why they'd face more issues in this area.

In any case, I'm no authority on these topics, just another curious person on the internet, but I find it entirely plausible the Phoenicians simply walked their boats past this obstacle.

Modern humans have an unfortunate habit of projecting our own perspective on labor onto ancient peoples. Humans are capable of truly astounding things with nothing more than their bodies when focused on a common goal for a sustained time. The best example is neolithic architecture. There was no magic trick to building Stonehenge. They just used a ton of people over a long time to drag the rocks there, and then sea saw them into position.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#58
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

I'm currently reading Clive Pointing's 'World History - A new perspective'. >800 pages of well researched history with a large Eurasian focus (due to the availability of sources, not bias). He repeatedly makes the point that some technology that Europe 'discovered' in the 13-19hundreds was in fact known in china 1000+ years earlier. Most of recorded history Europe basically played no role whatsoever. A few examples t…

With all these advantages, why did the industrial revolution happen in Europe instead of Asia?

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#59

If you haven't read it I highly recommend The History. Herodotus can be very entertaining. He pretty clearly lays out things he personally saw, things he heard from firsthand accounts, and things he heard secondhand. It's fun to see how things get more fanciful the farther you get away from the Mediterranean he knew. One thing that randomly sticks in my head is he said the Ethiopians were there most beautiful people…

Check https://mainzerbeobachter.com/2021/05/25/loog-herodotos-over... (by the same person who manages livius.net) on how Herodotus sometimes isn't all that precise distinguishing between things he knew first-had, and things he had by hear-say.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#60

If you haven't read it I highly recommend The History. Herodotus can be very entertaining. He pretty clearly lays out things he personally saw, things he heard from firsthand accounts, and things he heard secondhand. It's fun to see how things get more fanciful the farther you get away from the Mediterranean he knew. One thing that randomly sticks in my head is he said the Ethiopians were there most beautiful people…

Wait the Ethiopians had coffee in 400BCE?
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