Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#51

Post by vondur » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #44

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

I have a proposal: if the company sells some urepairable, unrecycleable and toxic piece of shit, then the customer/landfill/the government will post the e-waste to their head office and they are responsible for storing it untill the end of time. That will get incentives in the right place.

Here in California, these items have a E-waste fee you pay in the initial purchase. It's supposed to cover the disposal of the item once it's broken/discarded. I have no idea how many people actually dispose of them correctly. Where I work, we work with a company who retrieves these items. Once again, I have no idea what happens after they pick up the devices...

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#52

Post by KorematsuFred » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:14 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

I have never understood the demand for "right to repair" laws any ways. Don't you know the terms of repair before you buy the device ? Simply don't buy an iphone if you want to repair it yourself. If there is enough market for repairable devices someone will make them eventually otherwise you are only imposing a huge compliance cost on everyone else and slow down innovation for many companies.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#53

Post by Renaud » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

Manufacturers are not penalised for their technical choices. Making a thinner system seems like a great innovation but society at large pays for that product being non-repairable.

If you want corporations to have free reign on being able to innovate, there has to be some counter-incentive to force them to find innovative solutions around lengthning the life of of the product and its ability to be repaired and recycled.

As it stands today, bad press is the only incentive and its effect is easily mitigated by marketing and lobbying.

It needs to hurt. Innovation is born out of a need to improve. Making manufacturers responsible for their decisions is a way to balance their incentives.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#54

Post by simion314 » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #41

nrp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

That's a good approach. What would be even more interesting is to evaluate how reliable parts are. Spinning hard drives were often the first thing to fail for instance, due to the mechanical stress. Same thing for ports. Soldered-on RAM and flash, while almost impossible to upgrade, is way more reliable. No vibrations means way less mechanical stress.

>Soldered-on RAM and flash, while almost impossible to upgrade, is way more reliable.

It depends, software bugs or different workflow cam cause your storage or battery to fail faster, then you need to throw away the entire device because things are impossible or expensive to repair.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#55

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #41

nrp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

That's a good approach. What would be even more interesting is to evaluate how reliable parts are. Spinning hard drives were often the first thing to fail for instance, due to the mechanical stress. Same thing for ports. Soldered-on RAM and flash, while almost impossible to upgrade, is way more reliable. No vibrations means way less mechanical stress.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#56

Post by simion314 » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #29

formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

> I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible.

Are you sure that you are the one that "understand" ? It is as possible that reviewers get paid (with money or products) to push for thinness, mega pixels or other numbers so consumers would buy the newest and most expensive versions.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#57

Post by gerash » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

nrp wrote: post #34

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

I haven't seen the repairability index yet it sounds very arbitrary and prone to be gamed.

There is no need to micro manage how a device manufacturer designs their products as long as they offset the pollution they create by either paying the local governments to dig more landfills or recycle their own products or send it over to someone who can recycle.

There are still open problems on how to measure the pollution but it's a more flexible approach than a repairability score.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#58

Post by simion314 » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

bogwog wrote: post #32

fish45 wrote: post #7

I just replaced my phone battery using an iFixit kit a few minutes ago. It's probably extended the life of my phone by a year.

My iPhone XS Max screen cracked a few weeks ago and I've been debating sending it in for repair. Apple charges $300 friggin dollars to "fix" the display (I think they just send you a new phone). Looking online, displays only cost around $50-$90. So I've considered doing that instead, but if I go down that route, my phone will no longer support the "True Tone" feature. This is because Apple burned the serial number of…

>I don't understand how this isn't 100% illegal.

It might be illegal but you would need to fight in court for ears so existing laws are applied.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#59

Post by Siira » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #29

formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

As a slim person with small hands, I can tell you that it’s the weight, the texture, the width, and the ability to add straps etc that makes a difference, not so much the thickness.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#60

Post by j1elo » Fri, May 21, 2021, 11:37 PM UTC

ible wrote: post #31

hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

Other issues aside, "A is just a complicated B, so apply the same rules to A as B" is not a formula for good decision making. It's a common way to make bad mistakes though.

However IMO this is a case of "A is much more complex and dangerous than B, so there is no reason to have B driven by more secretive and restrictive standards than those applied to A"