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Effective altruism is not effective

philosophersbeard.org

51–60 of 248 posts

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#51
post #43

This article illustrates a big issue with people opposed to EA - they severely underestimate the risks associated with political change. Of course, we can just assume everything goes well, we agitate for political change, we get a change for the better, everything is great. But the risk of a different outcome never seems to be taken into consideration. For instance: We believe the conditions in our country are unfair…

> We start agitating and take down vital institutions in the name of change. Our movement gets hijacked by a military strongman who happens to be charismatic and liked by the people, and now we're under a brutal military dictatorship.

This risk is inherent in any political action (or inaction), and it could happen just as easily with a citizenry of Effective Altruists as with a bunch of scrooges. Charity and authoritarianism are orthogonal concepts. (IMO this risk is worth braving as we attempt to improve the human condition.)

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#53
post #44

My problem with EA, closely related to the points expressed by the author of this article, has always been this magical insistence on altruistic organizations that are both: 1. Extant outside the individual (e.g. "you", the reader, are not in an altruistic organization, but _somebody_ out there is, it's just not "you", so where is that somebody, and if it's not you, why do we always assume there will be a somebody) a…

I agree with you in that this aspect of EA has sometimes rubbed me the wrong way. I do see how EA writers get there though: Statistically, it's very unlikely that you will be the first person to hear about a particular initiative or cause. Given that a lot of EA people follow similar media (some of which is focused specifically on evaluating the best up-and-coming EA opportunities), the moment that an organization ge…

> I think part of the reason the writing is oriented this way, is an expectation that there will always be a glut of hardcore volunteers who will call and volunteer even if you tell them not to. Those people don't need convincing, but the people who do need convincing are the ones who might drop out if they find they aren't going to be on the front lines.

The thing is, at least based on my own experience in volunteering organizations, that this core of hardcore volunteers is a lot smaller than the actual number of volunteers needed. Once we actively discourage the more casual volunteers from directly attempting to help or organize, you end up actually making charity organizations less effective. I don't have the data to back this up, but this is my feeling. A little bit of guilt can often be enough motivation to help an individual realize that they are in fact very good at helping run a charitable organization.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#54

My problem with EA, closely related to the points expressed by the author of this article, has always been this magical insistence on altruistic organizations that are both: 1. Extant outside the individual (e.g. "you", the reader, are not in an altruistic organization, but _somebody_ out there is, it's just not "you", so where is that somebody, and if it's not you, why do we always assume there will be a somebody) a…

Err, that's exactly what 80,000 hours, the EA career advice organization, recommends. The recommendation to pursue a high-earning career is last , they recommended pursuing research, policy, and joining altruistic organizations ahead of that. You have to adjust the message to the audience though, 80,000 hours is aimed at college students and young grads, it doesn't make as much sense to emphasize these things if you'…

> I think the EA advice regarding donations is more of a common lower denominator sort of thing. Not everyone can do research and policy work, but a lot of people have at least some disposable income.

I think this is where my opprobrium lies. A surprising amount of charitable work is very similar to the standard, non-charitable work folks do for themselves. It's about managing logistics, managing organizations of people, and tracking and accounting for donations. Actual on-the-ground work (like distribution of materials or soup kitchen work) and high-level research and policy work is a minority of the work to be done. Much like a corporation, most of the work lies in middle management, and this much is obvious if you've ever spent a long stint volunteering for an organization. And then there's the idea that one may actually discover that they are better at the kind of work involved in charitable work than they thought, since most charitable work in individualist Western countries has very little public information associated. This is what I want to challenge among EA believers; much like a market with imperfect information, alignment with charitable work may also be a case of imperfect information.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#55

I get why this guy is engaging with Peter Singer, I think, because they're both academic philosophers, but I'm not sure that is really the major driver of EA, but perhaps I'm just blinded by the communities I'm adjacent to. This doesn't seem to be a fair characterization of EA at large, though. I can't speak for Singer specifically, but this is missing a few things. 1) Forget the tithing aspect. A lot of that is just…

> [Charity] doesn't preclude [political influence].

Unless you're a Scott Alexander, how much political influence can you wield through charity?

When you're rich (or famous) enough that your donations get media attention, only then you can do both. For the rest of us, every dollar we spend on charity is one we aren't spending influencing politics.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any time humans get together to solve a problem, band together to form a charity, coordinate over a social network to send out PPE, etc, they are not simply allocating optimally at the margins, they are aggregating resources and spending them toward a directed goal more efficiently. These are all examples of altruism. If you narrowly scope altruism to "marginal donation optimization", then yes, effective altruism is…

I accept that your definition is a common one, but one of two attributes strike me as crucial for an unambiguously pure altruism: - total anonymity, or - ultimate sacrifice, as in the mother or warrior who lays it down for another. Anything less is open to the usual questions of motive. As with Dada, altruism doesn't survive intellectual evaluation.

> As with Dada, altruism doesn't survive intellectual evaluation.

Sure and I'm not as interested in discussing the philosophical ideal of altruism. My interest in charitable work, as I suspect many interested in EA feel, stems from trying to do the greatest good with my limited allocation of resources, be that money, time, knowledge, manual labor, or otherwise. In that regard I'm unconcerned about the usual moral philosophical questions about motive and goodness.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#57

I think the biggest problem with the Effective Altruism movement is that it has become too tied up with people who like to debate things, especially topics like AI Risk. Optimizing the effectiveness of one's charitable donations is a reasonable goal. Doing basic research to choose efficient and effective charities makes sense. However, there are large parts of the EA community that have gone off the deep end of debat…

Without touching on the specifics of AI risk, it's worth noting that any approach which takes into account the marginal value of additional dollars towards a cause and 'room for funding' will tend to lean towards things outside of the charitable Overton window.

The 'obvious' cause areas are often already attended to, by virtue of being obvious. Picking the low hanging fruit means more money towards the same causes will tend to become less effective per dollar.

People aren't that great about planning for, or responding to, black swans. By nature, they're something people don't tend to think about. Existential risks are black swans dialed up to 11 in both magnitude of effect and in weirdness, so it's not surprising when they end up underfunded.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#58
post #4

This reads like a strawman perspective on the concept of 'effective altruism.' The 'effective' part in the term is doing a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to the definition. It seems reasonable to focus on actually 'effective' actions with good outcomes, rather than comparatively ineffective virtual signalling or martyrdom. Becoming rich and then helping millions of people with your means is more impactful tha…

But the "effective" part means more than just that. From their site: > It is a research field which uses high-quality evidence and careful reasoning to work out how to help others as much as possible. This assumes that reasoning and evidence are sufficient to determine what will be most effective. Compare this to the Buddhists, for example, who believe that the networks of causality are so complex and intricate that…

This is a common philosophical problem. EA fits in a philosophical framework broadly known as utilitarianism (which is also popular among rationalists, a group known to be fans of EA). Buddhism's ideas of moral philosophy often lie in a mixture of what is commonly known as Divine Will Ethics and Virtue Ethics. Utilitarianism is quite popular among modern STEM discourse, but there are moral alternatives out there that have been sufficiently explored. The idea that decision making may just be too complex to be effectively optimized is one of Utilitarianism's long-standing critiques (e.g., in the trolley problem, what happens if you save the 3 people over the 1 person, but one of those 3 people ends up becoming (or is) a dictator who orchestrates a genocide.)

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#59

My problem with EA, closely related to the points expressed by the author of this article, has always been this magical insistence on altruistic organizations that are both: 1. Extant outside the individual (e.g. "you", the reader, are not in an altruistic organization, but _somebody_ out there is, it's just not "you", so where is that somebody, and if it's not you, why do we always assume there will be a somebody) a…

If you’re not particularly skilled in the things that organization needs, then it may well be better just to donate it. Charitable organizations often have more volunteers or people who work for them than they have donations to leverage for their goal. More volunteers at a well-manned food bank isn’t going to help if the food bank doesn’t have enough food to give out. I think a lot of people who do work at charities (like you suggest) would agree with this.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#60
1. It is difficult to have these sorts of discussions without first giving a reason for helping or giving at all. What is the reason for charity? Why should I give anything to anyone in need? (E.g., [0] and [1].) No bromides. You can't really offer any deep answers to the question of charity without a deep grasp of human nature. We are essentially eating machines. These are basic needs, not ultimate ends.

2. I do not believe poverty can be "solved". This would seem to view the satisfaction of need and elimination of unfavorable circumstances as things which could be satisfied and remedied permanently, but no such guarantee can be made. This is not to say government cannot play a role, only that we should not view government as a substitute.

3. Charity, while good for the other and aimed at the good of the other, is also good for the giver. That is, in giving I become better myself in a very objective and intrinsic way, which is to say, regardless of whether someone else witnesses my charity or not (or rather, especially when no one witnesses it or knows about it). Really, the kind of socialistic programs that I see many promoting only reinforces consumerism: the responsibility is outsourced to government who forcefully takes part of my income and "takes care of the problem" so that I can carry on uninterrupted with my consumerist lifestyle. But charity offers a way of breaking the cycle.

4. It is a false dichotomy to pit the moral growth charity produces against the good of the other. A true charitable act is characterized both by sacrifice and producing objective good. This requires knowledge. Without knowledge, there can be no love because you cannot love what you do not know.

5. Charity is always an individual act (groups aren't agents), but this doesn't mean that people cannot cooperate toward a charitable end. That's what charitable organizations do. The organized individual sacrifices of each person contributes to some good.

6. The notion that charity must consist of some grandiose or glamorous, but ultimately distant, concern for some people on the other side of the planet is misguided. We could use more charity in our daily lives and interactions and relationships.

7. The notion of the common good is omitted in the article. It is good for a society that people are not starving, for example.

[0] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3023.htm [1] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03592a.htm

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