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Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

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Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#51

Post by dogma1138 »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #32
analog31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, "law of unintended consequences" looms large here. On the other hand, "proof of work" reminds me that the equivalence of heat and work was proven more than 150 years ago by Joule.

That equivalence exists in the domain of classical physics. Bitcoin only exists in semiconductor systems: its ineffectiveness stems from the extra logical layer (gates on silicon) which, while based on quantum effects, does not utilize quantum effects directly for calculation.

Isn’t a perfect computer is also a perfect heater? Quantum or not...

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#52

Post by flyinglizard »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #32
analog31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, "law of unintended consequences" looms large here. On the other hand, "proof of work" reminds me that the equivalence of heat and work was proven more than 150 years ago by Joule.

That equivalence exists in the domain of classical physics. Bitcoin only exists in semiconductor systems: its ineffectiveness stems from the extra logical layer (gates on silicon) which, while based on quantum effects, does not utilize quantum effects directly for calculation.

Doesn’t any method by which work is done, in a proof of work system, consume energy?

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#53

Post by Aachen »

throwawayQuwcy wrote: post #13
JulianMorrison wrote: post #5

Bitcoin needs to get mapped across 1:1 to something that doesn't require vast number crunching energy use, and the old blockchain abandoned

It's already happening! There's approx 150,000 BTC locked in the Ethereum network as ERC20 tokens like WBTC and RENBTC https://wbtc.network/dashboard/order-book Ethereum is moving to proof of stake shortly. I imagine a lot more BTC will transfer over to take advantage of this & other benefits like defi interest

I've heard some skepticism regarding the PoS of eth, so I'm in "let's see it when it's there" mode, but I'm somewhat optimistic here. Can't go fast enough for my taste, I'm really curious if it'll turn out to be what it's supposed to! Hopefully this will also mean people start to move over to this better tech.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#54

Post by superkuh »

trimbo wrote: post #30
superkuh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You better not particpate in fiat currencies that maintain themselves by spending TwHs to maintain their standing armies (or diplomatic relations with countries that do have standing armies).

Spending energy on bitcoin would replace the need for militaries?

No, nation states and their fiat currencies are locked into the bare metal layer of human relations and the only thing that matters is ability to legitimately threaten to kill humans and destroy infrastructure. (or an alliance with a country that has those capabilities)

Bitcoin is not a nationstate and doesn't have the weaknesses of nation states and their economic systems. It uses far less energy to establish and maintain itself.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#55

Post by birktj »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #32
analog31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, "law of unintended consequences" looms large here. On the other hand, "proof of work" reminds me that the equivalence of heat and work was proven more than 150 years ago by Joule.

That equivalence exists in the domain of classical physics. Bitcoin only exists in semiconductor systems: its ineffectiveness stems from the extra logical layer (gates on silicon) which, while based on quantum effects, does not utilize quantum effects directly for calculation.

Isn't there also a fundamental equivalence between information and energy in physics? And so is there not a lower limit to the amount of energy required to compute a SHA256 hash of a certain number of bytes, and by extension mine a bitcoin block?

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#56

Post by bitwize »

rootusrootus wrote: post #24
eloff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a payment system (unless the transaction is sufficiently large). It's more like digital gold. But gold has a track record of holding value over millennia. Bitcoin is only a decade old. Will it hold up over time? Nobody actually knows.

> Nobody actually knows. We could make an educated guess, however. Gold has intrinsic value, which gives it a significant advantage over a tiny arrangement of bits in an ocean of them.

There's no such thing as intrinsic value. Gold has value because humans value it. Humans value it basically because it's shiny and somewhat rare, but the value is something we project onto it.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#59

Post by trhway »

All the such energy/BTC arguments miss that BTC (and other crypto) mining in space has no limit and will become feasible when Starships start flying. And it looks to be more profitable than asteroid mining :)

People frequently raise the issue of cooling in space while missing the fact that at 60C 1m2 radiates away 700w - enough to cool 3-4 mining GPUs which can basically be just slapped on that heatsink.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#60

Post by agravier »

auntienomen wrote: post #31
agravier wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its not a payment system (unless the transaction is sufficiently large). > It's more like digital gold. As explained by the famous paper: "Bitcoin: Definitely Not A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"

And rebutted in the equally well known "Bitcoin: A Comically Badly Designed and Completely Dysfunctional Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System".

I perfectly agree that Bitcoin has stopped innovating long ago to become many people's wasteful cash cow, and needs to die soon.

But I don't like "it's actually meant to be digital gold" revisionism.

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