Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

abcnews.go.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 435 posts

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#51

Post by jdietrich »

FireBeyond wrote: post #9
axaxs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

Because when the feedback loops on his 140lb musculature are blocked and he will keep going to the point of permanent damage... and when his ability to feel pain is decreased... and there's a very real concern for hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis with an extended struggle, dysrhythmia, then maybe ketamine becomes the better option. That being said, ketamine should be an EMS decision to minimize risk to patient and others…

Excited delirium is a really, really sketchy diagnosis. There's certainly no good clinical evidence to suggest that ketamine is an effective treatment.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#52

Post by geofft »

aaron_m04 wrote: post #45
geofft wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do your friends generally take drugs involuntarily and without informed awareness of the effects and without a trusted trip sitter the first time they do something new and with associated negative circumstances (like a broken bone or an arrest)?

That's GP's point I think: the context of the experience makes all the difference.

Ah, the comment was edited after I replied, oops. Yes.

(Though I don't believe whether it's enjoyable in the right setting has much to do with whether cops should be using it. I get that this is a defense of ketamine as a recreational drug, but e.g. alcohol would probably be un-fun if the first time you experienced it was at a high dose during either surgery or an arrest, and that one's widely accepted as a reasonable recreational drug.)

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#53

Post by burfog »

profikid wrote: post #46

Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.

Cops also use pepper spray. It's against someone's will, by non-cooks, for no culinary purpose.

Cops also use electric stun guns. It's against someone's will, by non-electricians, for no electronic purpose.

Mind proposing an acceptable method of restraint? Go ahead, and see people tear it apart as a human rights violation.

It's much like the hopeless situation in bad schools, where all possible methods of discipline have been banned. Things are a mess if we deny the need to impose proper behavior by force.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#54

Post by [deleted] »

FireBeyond wrote: post #9
axaxs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a life-saving drug, it's literally never needed. Guy was 140 lbs. There's not a 140 lb man I couldn't subdue myself, probably. And I'm just an out of shape programmer. Why do six cops feel they can't do the same?

Because when the feedback loops on his 140lb musculature are blocked and he will keep going to the point of permanent damage... and when his ability to feel pain is decreased... and there's a very real concern for hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis with an extended struggle, dysrhythmia, then maybe ketamine becomes the better option. That being said, ketamine should be an EMS decision to minimize risk to patient and others…

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#55

Post by [deleted] »

elevenoh wrote: post #15
ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#56

Post by DevoidSimo »

elevenoh wrote: post #15
ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

As other people have said, preparation is a big part of enjoying it. Any hallucinogens without knowing what to expect would be scary.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#57

Post by ajkdhcb2 »

ladberg wrote: post #14

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reductio…

I had almost exactly the same response the first time I took ketamine. This is despite being experienced with psychedelics (all extremely positive lifechanging experiences), and despite that I was safe at home, knowing what I was taking. The only problem was that I was in a bad state of mind.

It is truly disturbing to imagine going through that during an arrest, with no idea what is happening

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#58

Post by hnlurker »

Set aside the ethics, legality, and saneness of doping an arrestee for a moment. Anyone know if this impacts the arrested person's 5th amendment rights?

Once you administer a mind altering drug against that person's will, any and all statements made by that person ought to be out of bounds for using against them at trial.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#59

Post by sneak »

jdietrich wrote: post #49
sneak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3-4mg/kg is more than sufficient for subduing an adult human. 7-10mg/kg will cause unconsciousness, and is dangerous without CLOSE airway monitoring. Injecting a suspect with a drug without medical necessity or consent is a major human rights issue, and you wouldn’t be far off if you called it rape. The whole thing is quite obviously pig lies; they had dogs and tasers on this 140lb black man who they had already had…

7-10mg/kg will cause unconsciousness, and is dangerous without CLOSE airway monitoring. Just barely dangerous. You might see a bit of transient respiratory depression, but the risk of respiratory arrest or clinically significant hypoxia is very low even in an out-of-hospital setting. We have case reports of paediatric patients receiving as much as 50mg/kg without significant ill effect. https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi…

I think perhaps you assume empty stomach, such as in a normal setting. Those doses are puke probability 1.0 range, which is lifethreatening if the person is unconscious and unmonitored.

Ketamine doesn’t really depress respiration that much. If the airway is physically obstructed, however, because nobody had their eye on him...

Post reply on HN