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Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

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Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#51

Post by gruez »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #17

I feel like I'm in the minority that thinks this is a good idea. I can easily see how some people might be made uncomfortable by the existing wording, but more importantly, I can see no downside to changing it. It will be a very small amount of work for a very small amount of time and then everything will carry on as normal. If this helps make programming more inclusive, even in a small way, then I'm all for it.

>I can see no downside to changing it.

Yes there is. If you set a precedent that you're going to cave whenever someone says they are offended, you're going to attract trolls pretending to be offended so they can have a laugh at your expense[1]. The whole master/main controversy might be genuine, but it's only a matter of time before 4chan comes up with another word/phrase for whites to be guilty about, and therefore need to be changed.

[1] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#52

Post by cs02rm0 »

simion314 wrote: post #23

IMO if you change this terms with even better ones(that are more clear and more specific for the domain) then is great.

How do you do that when you have an established word an entire industry understands?

Words only have the meaning we convey to them and as soon as you put more words in the mix that dilutes any clarity. We're back to the xkcd on standards.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#53

Post by Rebelgecko »

entropea wrote: post #19
LeoPanthera wrote: post #17

I feel like I'm in the minority that thinks this is a good idea. I can easily see how some people might be made uncomfortable by the existing wording, but more importantly, I can see no downside to changing it. It will be a very small amount of work for a very small amount of time and then everything will carry on as normal. If this helps make programming more inclusive, even in a small way, then I'm all for it.

How does it help black individuals though? Like how does it improve their lives, police brutality & prison reform, poverty, water quality?

Even though many (or even most) people probably aren't offended by terms like blacklist or master/slave, there's a non-zero number of people who are. Obviously changing terminology isn't going to end racism, but it will have a small positive impact on some people. Even if 99% of people don't care, they're not harmed as long as the new terminology is clear. IMO there's no semantic loss by going from "master/slave" to "primary/replica" or similar.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#55

Post by sradman »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #17

I feel like I'm in the minority that thinks this is a good idea. I can easily see how some people might be made uncomfortable by the existing wording, but more importantly, I can see no downside to changing it. It will be a very small amount of work for a very small amount of time and then everything will carry on as normal. If this helps make programming more inclusive, even in a small way, then I'm all for it.

> I can see no downside to changing it.

Neither can Master Wayne, according to Alfred, who is as polite as a school master. Of course, the Dark Knight did not have a masters degree, nor the spirituality of a Zen master, nor the concentration of a chess master. I am a certified dive master. I was close friends with several build masters. Of the great masters, Monet is my favorite. I hope to master my fear. Seinfeld fans still joke about being masters of their domain.

No downside indeed. Might as well sail into the sun on a three-master.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#56

Post by [deleted] »

bdcravens wrote: post #48
Jabbles wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised, but I am giving the OP the chance to show they are not full of shit.

If you need links, I'll dig up links to the discussions I'm talking about. That said, this level of discourse sounds like it's devolving to what I'd expect on T_D or similar.

[deleted]

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#57

Post by singron »

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #11
entropea wrote: post #3

What does stuff like this actually do except give them some good PR? It doesn't end racism or help black lives at all. It seems like a corporate facade of change while ignoring the real material issues of life for black inidividuals that these major protests pointed out.

That's exactly it. It reminds me of some aspects of China during The Great Leap Forward. The grain production quotas set by Mao was completely unrealistic. However if the local leader said it, they would be branded as "anti-revolutionary" and sent off to reeducation camps. So the local leader lied and said they achieved the quota and was praised by the party. This lead to other village leader saying they exceeded the…

Misreporting regional grain production caused the central government to export "excess" grain and led to domestic famine.

Replacing unnecessary uses of the word "slave" in corporate codebase probably has less dire consequences.

Our problems with race are systemic and deeply rooted in many aspects of our culture. There isn't going to be a small number if things that will fix racism. The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. Unfortunately we also have a history of taking a few steps and declaring that we traveled a thousand miles, but I dont think the fix for that is to stand still.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#58

Post by Jabbles »

bdcravens wrote: post #48
Jabbles wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised, but I am giving the OP the chance to show they are not full of shit.

If you need links, I'll dig up links to the discussions I'm talking about. That said, this level of discourse sounds like it's devolving to what I'd expect on T_D or similar.

I want you to justify or retract your statement that "There's significant push back from the BLM core".

Because that's massively different from "I saw some PoC disagree with this on Twitter" and I want HN to be a place where the discourse is fact-based.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#59

Post by ogre_codes »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #29

Wow, this community is terrible. It's good to see that the people who matter are more advanced: Wikipedia is also (finally) doing this, as I noticed today. And so is Github. It's a renaming of mostly internal identifiers, a somewhat minor change for those implementing it, and a complete non-issue for anyone else. It doesn't matter if you are offended by the terms or not. Your opinion is somewhat irrelevant for once.…

> Wow, this community is terrible.

I don't think this is true.

This particular topic seems to trigger a vocal group of people, but in general this community isn't terrible.

> But when they get the chance to do so, with the barest minimum effort, it's not going to happen.

This is what frustrates me most. In this particular case people don't even have to make an effort, they just need to be tolerant of efforts made by others and still we get the shouting.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#60

Post by simion314 »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #52
simion314 wrote: post #23

IMO if you change this terms with even better ones(that are more clear and more specific for the domain) then is great.

How do you do that when you have an established word an entire industry understands? Words only have the meaning we convey to them and as soon as you put more words in the mix that dilutes any clarity. We're back to the xkcd on standards.

I am not an english speaker, for example "black list" is a concept that translates worse then "blocked list" , the first requires you have some local or historical context the last one is just clear as day.
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