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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#51

Immigration is good for innovation, the H1B system is not. This administrations rollout of the suspension is cruel, which is the point. H1B Reform/Replacement is needed, the status quo is not.

If H1B visas were actually used for rare skilled talent, it would be great for innovation. Unfortunately, the majority of H1B workers are no better than your average run-of-the-mill CRUD programmer.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#52
post #16

The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me. The system absolutely needs reform, and I think most people can agree with that. But that said, blanket bans on immigration by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration are probably not designed to help America or innovation either. The…

> by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration

This type of baseless rhetoric is rooted in identity politics and underlies the current division in the US.

Directly from the Whitehouse Proclamation[0]:

"American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers."

[0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#53
Any blanket statement in this thread or elsewhere that reads like "H-1B visas X" is probably wrong, as the visa is used by a wide range of employers and employees.

That is probably the biggest issue with the visa. It's meant to do one thing but abused to be solve many other needs, some of which are needs society really doesn't want to solve (hiring cheaper labor for positions Americans could easily fill)

Attempts to solve this problem should start by shining a light on the many current uses of the visa, figuring out which are worth safeguarding and which are worth eliminating and then discussing how to reform this particular visa (and possibly create others) to address the worthwhile needs.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#54
post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

It's hard to convey to a citizen how demoralizing being on an H1B is. If you get laid off, you have at best 30 days to find a new job and transfer your visa (from what I remember), otherwise you have to leave the country. H1B does not allow moonlighting. You can't start a startup by yourself. You can't take significant time off between jobs unless you transfer your visa and negotiate it. Your spouse likely won't be able to work (it's not trivial). You can't protest unfair working conditions to the extent a citizen can, because getting fired is effectively exile. Calling it indentured servitude is accurate.

I'm sure most people understand that it's a transactional relationship, I.e. you get to live in the country while you work and that's it, but if you live in a city for several years and settle in, form friendships, hobbies, and maybe relationships, it's very difficult to put all of that at risk for any reason.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#55
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

Many foreigners seeking to immigrate to the US see anything short of total open boarders as white supremacy. Americans caring about, protecting and developing our own workforce is the great evil of our day.

Funny though that you see a muuuch more receptive tone to H1B limits here on HN compared to say, a story about American manufacturing going overseas. Quite interesting how one’s perspective on outsourcing changes when it’s YOUR livelihood being threatened.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#56

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

> I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

Factory workers in 80s and 90s said the same thing. All it did was price American factory workers out of the labor pool completely, moving jobs elsewhere.

American greed and I-got-mine-fuck-you attitude is exactly why US will not remain a global superpower country anymore.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The graph is not just people, but specifically inventors. The US has a giant net influx of inventors (some of whom arrive on a H1B), which presumably creates wealth, jobs, etc.

How many of those really arrive on H1B, and how many of those have no other options? I was told that even I could apply for some "talent visa" (the one that fashion models often use) because I competed in the math olympiad... the bar seems to be set incredibly low (speaking of myself, not the models).

I would recommend googling the process and try it out. Just try to find out if it is actually easy before commenting.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Stephen Miller is a white supremacist now? He must be hiding it pretty well, since I've heard through hundreds of hours of his podcast with Raheem Kasam and he has never said anything remotely racist.

Stephen Miller, the one working in the White House, doesn't host any podcast. You are thinking of Jason Miller.

You're right, sorry about that one.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#59
post #31
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "without chaining it to a specific company" is critical. When the employee is chained to a company, the company has every incentive to lie then treat the employee poorly. When the employee is not chained to the company, the company has incentives to tell the truth then treat the employee well.

Unfortunately the reality is that there is absolutely no one who is interested in pushing a visa scheme like this. Employers are not interested in going through effort and paperwork for an employee who can jump ship for a better offer down the street once they are in the country. Other employees are not interested in increasing the supply of similar labor that will drive down their market value. The only ones who are…

> Other employees are not interested in increasing the supply of similar labor that will drive down their market value.

I’m not sure it’s that simple: lots of workers know they’re competing at their current employer with H1-B’s who are underpaid and mistreated. If they’re paid more that dynamic softens a lot and there’s still a cap on the total number.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will fuel the "remote anywhere" trend that's already underway. If a H1b engineer in US suppresses wage growth, wait until the same engineer can do the work for 1/3rd the cost from his own country, especially when everyone in the team is remote.

You say this like it’s that easy. We have remotes working in Singapore and Australia, and it is a far cry from “easy” to work with these people either due to timing constraints, language barriers or other aspects that disrupt fluid communication.

I agree that is a concern with a US centric team. Imagine a globally distributed team - 3 engineers are in Asia pacific region, 2 in Europe and 2 in US. Everyone in the team is equally affected by timing constraints and language barriers, so it becomes more palatable. And in such a world even the notion of coming to US and working on an H1B visa does not exist.
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